Eric Vreeland, Chief Strategy Officer at Polyhedra. Welcome. Hi, thanks for having me, excited to be here today. Awesome. Before we get into all the good things that you guys are doing at Polyhedra, we'd love to learn a little bit about what brought you into crypto. Absolutely. Well, I have been, always kind of on the, you know, looking for the, towards the future of technology and where that's going to take us. think, you know, back in the day when I was in college, I was very early on Twitter and, and Foursquare, if you remember that and like sending tweets via SMS. I always knew I wanted to work in kind of startups and I really liked the idea. that you are kind of paving your own path and that there were going to be times when you would need to kind of think creatively and problem solve because there were no playbooks. You kind of got to write your own playbooks. And so similarly, when Bitcoin came onto the scene, I was an early kind of early involved. I was an early participant on the blockchain and kind of personally invested and always exploring new applications. And I had started out kind of working in B2B marketing, but I did have somewhat of a technical background. did a lot of computer science early on. And so that kind of lent itself to working at companies with a very technical product. And a few years ago, was approached by a recruiter to about an opportunity at Layer Zero Labs, which is actually one of Polyhedra's partners for a head of marketing role. And it felt like a very good opportunity to kind of make that transition from something that I was doing in my free time and in my personal time to something that I could do professionally as well. and you know, since, joining layer zero, that's how I met the polyhedra team. And then they had an opening to kind of build out their go to market function here. And, I was already very impressed with the technical prowess of the team. And it was a really good opportunity that aligned with my background in, business development and marketing and go to market. And, that's kind of what led me here today. Cool. I would think that Layer Zero and Polyhedra would be competitors, but I guess there's an element of cooperation there. What's the business development angle that led you guys to be partners? Layer Zero, the way that it's architected, they handle message execution. So, you know, sending the data from one blockchain to another, but it was built in a modular way and such that you can, if you're an application building on Layer Zero, you can choose various methods for validating the authenticity of a message. And polyhedra has a unique way to do that via zero knowledge proofs, which I'm sure we'll get into in a little bit. And the value prop for using zero knowledge proofs is that, you know, they're more secure. They have less trust assumptions. Most traditional ways that messages are validated is through a traditional validator network. So you have a bunch of validators, they look at a message, they make sure that it follows all the criteria. to be a valid message and then they sign off on it and then layer zero delivers that message. Well, we act in a similar capacity except instead of managing a network of validators, we generate a zero knowledge proof of the transaction inclusion or the block header and we generate a zero knowledge proof of the consensus. And because that is impossible to forge, even if the machines that these proofs were generated on work was compromised, there would be no way for a malicious actor to generate a zero knowledge proof that verified a malicious message. And so we are one of the primary validators on layer zero. They call them DVNs. We're actually the default DVN. for a number of a lot of the blockchains that Layer 0 supports. And then for some of the applications building on top of Layer 0, if there is a lot of value at stake or if security is a significant concern, a lot of the applications will come to us and ask us to kind of support them from a message verification standpoint. So we don't. In that context, we don't actually do the message execution, but we do the message validation or verification, which is kind of the security component of that process. And that makes sense. sounds like that's been a mutually beneficial partnership. And kind of initially, from what I understand, that's where Polyhedra first kind of entered the market with that type of service, the ZK bridge or ZK kind of proof for interoperability protocols. Yeah. So, I mean, the, you know, we were kind of formed out of a research group. our CTO and CEO, and some of our other founders were completing their, their PhDs or doing their postdocs at UC Berkeley. they were stunned studying, or doing research with Dawn Song and the paper. that the company was kind of initially founded on is a paper titled ZK bridge. So very literal. We kind of took this paper and was a theoretical, like, how can we use zero knowledge proofs to make blockchain interoperability more secure and more trustless and cheaper. And, you know, it seemed like there were legs there and people were very interested in it it does align very well with the. core ethos of why a lot of people are building in blockchain and why people are excited about blockchain's potential. But it wasn't easy to go from theoretical to production. And the reason for that is because zero-knowledge proofs take a lot of computation. They often take a lot of time to generate. We had to find a way to generate zero knowledge proofs extremely quickly because nobody, when they're bridging their assets, wants to wait around for 30 minutes or an hour for their assets to be moved between blockchains. And the core bottleneck was this proof generation for making a production-ready ZK bridge. And our team also had a lot of expertise, obviously, in zero-knowledge proofs, and started to do a lot of research and building around the GKR protocol, which is the protocol that our now open-source proof system expander is based on. And with that comes the benefit of extremely fast proof generation, extremely fast performance. which enabled us to build zero knowledge secured interoperability protocol that didn't have some of the issues that were kind of preventing other teams from doing so. So you've taken us to how Polyhedra initially got traction, which is through ZK Bridge. And it sounds like Polyhedra is developing these other offerings now, these other products. Maybe tell us a little bit about those. Yeah. Well, ZK Bridge, you know, grew very quickly. It became very apparent that there was an appetite for, you know, a more secure, more trustless interoperability solution. And so ZK Bridge offered that. And so we scaled that up. You know, initially we supported a handful of chains and now we support 35. different blockchains. I think we've done over 30 million cross-chain messages on ZK Bridge. And we're continuing to expand ZK Bridge support, continuing to bring on new chains, continuing to make it faster and cheaper, and continuing to find ways that we can make sure that it is the most secure option out there. But... we have this new proof system, Expander, that was orders of magnitude faster than any of the proof systems that had come before it. And we started to think, well, there are lots of other applications of zero-knowledge proofs where Expander could add significant value. So if you, you know, if you, look at all of the layer twos, all the ZK roll-ups that are out there. They could all benefit from a faster proof system. If you look at the ZK VMs like Sysync, then Risk Zero and Nexus, they could all benefit from some of the performance benefits. And then more recently, we started to think about how AI and AI specifically kind of in coordination with the blockchain is starting to take off and how there's a lot of talk around transparency with AI and verifiability with AI and how zero knowledge proofs might be the missing piece of the puzzle that can add to that. So there are all these other applications that people believe zero knowledge is potentially a long-term solution, but where performance is very important. And so we decided to open source expand or we just started to start doing research in some of these areas ourselves. We started to do more BD focused around increasing the usage of our proof system or increasing awareness of our proof system because while we are very well known in the academic circles and with prominent ZK researchers, I still think that there's work to be done as far as raising awareness around Expander and all of the ZK tools that we've developed for maybe blockchain developers or AI developers who may not have their finger on the pulse as to what's going on in the very niche ZK environment. And so yeah, we kind of open-sourced Expander. We released a product in collaboration with Google Cloud called Proof Cloud, which is a cloud-proving platform that allows developers to quickly and cheaply verify their Expander proofs so they don't have to worry about setting up the hardware. And then we started to do a lot of research around ZKML and this idea of verifiable AI. and recently launched a developer toolkit called ZKPytorch, which allows machine learning engineers and developers who are utilizing PyTorch already to build out their AI models to build a verifiable AI model without any significant change to their developer pipeline. so, yeah, mean, really if there is a... an opportunity or a problem where we believe that our expertise in zero knowledge is going to have, could potentially be the solution to a lot of the problems that people are experiencing. Chances are we're going to kind of go after it. You said a lot there. I want to maybe double click into a couple of things. No, mean, it's all really good and I think it's really important. I just want the audience to really understand what you guys are up to. First off, what's the target customer for these products? And you mentioned awareness a couple of times. I guess, what are some tactics that you guys are doing? to bring awareness of these new products to your target audience. Yeah, that's a great question. So our target audience is, you know, our developers. I would say the type of developer probably varies based on what product, but for Expander, it's going to be developers that are building a solution where zero knowledge is core to that offering. So, you know, I mentioned CK roll-ups and ZKVMs. There's also teams that are building applications that utilize ZK. Those would be just as good of a fit as some of these infrastructure plays as well. Would they need to know the ins and outs of ZK? Would they need to know how to build a circuit, for example? Or could they be a pretty beginner developer and still be able to do pretty well using Polyhedra? Yeah, it's not going to be as easy as utilizing a ZKVM, where you can just code in whatever you're used to coding in and then out pops a verifiable execution. But we do have tools that make it very, very easy. So we have the Expander compiler collection. where developers that may not be well-versed in ZK that don't want to be building their circuits from scratch can utilize some of the tools to make this process a lot easier. I would say, and we have a lot of very good documentation. We have a very strong DevRel and support team that is always open to talking with engineers who might have problems. I mean, I would say our goal is to make it so that anyone that wants to utilize Expander or some of our other ZK tools, they're able to do so. And then I would say, although there may be a little bit more of a learning curve or might take you a little bit longer to get up and running, the performance gains from doing so are just... so immense that it is going to definitely be worth it. And then also some of the future-proofing for things like the fact that Expander is quantum resistant. And so you're kind of future-proofing your application for if or when that becomes something that you need. And we just have also a very active team working on developing and continually improving Expander. you know, our benchmarks, I think over the past three months for certain, you know, common tasks like Keckic permutations, for instance, increased fivefold. And so, you know, we are really devoted to maintaining Expander's position as the fastest proof system in the world. And so I think that, you know, that is important to developers. don't want to adopt something that is going to be, deprecated or, just not, you know, a core focus. And for us, is. Expander is the lifeblood of, of what we're building. And so, you know, developers can feel comfortable knowing that we are going to not only spend time helping them build on top of it, but spend time continuing to innovate and continuing to make it better. The second part of the question was around awareness. How do you bring awareness to developers that might need a solution like Expander? Yeah. So, we have recently put a very strong emphasis on education. so we have lots of amazing content coming out on our blog. our CTO Tian Chen just posted a really, really lengthy, but th th know, thorough and, and, know, well-written kind of recap of everything that we've launched and everything that we're doing in the first month of the year. In our Discord and in our Telegram, we're constantly sharing new partners that we are working with and collaborating with. But I'll highlight one thing that I'm really excited about, which is the launch of a new bi-weekly show that we have called the Polyhedra Show, where we go into our, I mean, we've done a number of different topics, but we go into our roadmap. I'm on there most Thursdays talking with ecosystem projects and diving into the details of how they're working with Polyhedra and what value it's unlocking for their application or for their project. And so we're really leaning into this You know, content, I come from a marketing background, so I believe content is king. Obviously you have this podcast, so I think I don't need to convince you. And I would say the last or another good example is we currently have an ongoing bootcamp, which is a kind of a combination of structured learning and then a hackathon. And we're putting that on in collaboration with another of companies, but we have a a huge participation from the Ethereum Foundation. We have lecturers, we Dan Bonet from Stanford. We had Alan from Aptus. had our CTO, our chief cryptographer. And so we are really leaning into some more of this educational content where developers that see the potential of zero knowledge can come and learn from the people who literally wrote the papers on it and created it. Jen's Groth from Nexus gave one of the lectures. So we are going to continue to do things like this and provide educational resources because it is a very nascent subject and industry, not just crypto, but ZK within crypto. And we believe that we have a lot of expertise that we can share with the world. It sure sounds like it. I think the Polyhedra show is a really great idea. I'm looking at the February 6th episode, Securing Liquidity. How did that go? How's the campaign going? Yeah, it's going really well. the show was with any alt. They are actually one of our, partners on the ZK bridge side. So like I said, we're continuing to support and grow ZK bridge, but we've also had projects on that are building with expander. I think we have Nexus, and the Nexus ZKVM team coming on in a couple of weeks. you know, it, it has been really good. actually, you know, I've, I've spent time doing a lot of. podcast for different companies that I've worked at. my first job out of college was at a company called HubSpot. And at the time they had a, a weekly online television show called HubSpot TV. And this is back in 2010. So before podcasts blew up before live streaming blew up and I was actually the producer for that. So I'm, I'm, have always been a big fan of, this type of, content. And, I think it's going really well and we have a great team kind of behind the scenes that's helping, you know, line up the guests and, and gather questions from our community. That's a really big piece of it, right? Is, is, making sure that you're creating content that's enjoyable and interesting to your audience. So we try to, as much as possible, keep our community involved, whether it's, you know, asking them for questions ahead of time or. you know, doing polls during the event or in our boot camps, you know, some of the work, some of the office hours that we've had now are really interactive or we'll even call people up on stage. And I think that's, you know, just such an important piece for keeping people engaged. And so we try as much as we can to do that as well. I love HubSpot. I mean, I was a user for a while and have attended the HubSpot conference, I think like three times. Uh-huh. They, I was actually on the team that, uh, put together HubSpot's first inbound conference. think it was in 2011. I, Mark Robearge and Mike Volpe and, and Brian Halligan. Yeah. I, I, I, some of them, if you search for my name and HubSpot, you'll still see some of my blog posts from, uh, way back in the day. So it's, you know, they really, they really did. I mean, they kind of created this idea of. inbound marketing and if you create content that your buyer persona or your community finds interesting, like they will find you. And we're really living that with our go-to-market and marketing strategy at Polyhedra. I think that's a great idea and you don't really see that enough in crypto. And it's like one of those foundational things is to just create really great content, content pillars that meets like that answer specific questions that your target audience has. You don't see that enough and it's really refreshing to see that you guys at Polyhedra are doing that. Yeah, I think I've thought about this a lot actually. And I think one of the reasons that that's the case is, because, a lot of the down funnel activities, you know, are well, one, they're not well defined and two, they're hard to measure even if you have to find them. So whereas a traditional B2B business may be You know, it's very clear the marketing team is measured on leads generated, which is like, you know, someone filling out a form with their name, their email and their company in, in web three. If you asked people to fill out a form and give you their email when they visited your website to like watch a video or, or, or download a case study, your conversion rate would be pretty horrible. but. those, those tactics are still working. Like at the end of the day, you know, you really want to drive people to your website, to learn about what you're doing, to drive them to your documentation, to see how they can implement the technology that you're providing. and you want to share the problem that you're solving and how you solve it and why you think your solution is superior to maybe the alternatives that are out there. And you can still use some of these strategies, even if maybe the, may have to be creative with how you measure success. But, you know, I think that the kind of the core ideas are really the same. I think so too. think it's the core ideas and implementing it into a different context is key. And I think the Polyhedra show and I'm looking at other efforts that you guys are doing. I think this is, it's brilliant. Really providing this type of educational information at all levels of the funnel. Bottom of the funnel for those that are ready. Top of the funnel, like what is ZK? Super smart. For another project, I did some research on what the responses were to privacy versus ZK. And obviously, depending on the audience, the various levels of interest. But it's pretty clear that for the developer audience, they care more about ZK than they do about privacy. And I put that in quotes because of a... There's a lot of baggage with privacy, right? It's such a broad topic, but ZK is a technology that just enables privacy. And so there's definitely a lot of interest there from developers. Yeah, I think, I think ZK got a lot of limelight early on because of its privacy characteristics and how teams like the, you know, the Zcash team were using it for kind of private transactions. now if you look at the way that a large percentage of teams are utilizing ZK, it's not necessarily for privacy, but it's more for verifiability and scalability. And we have, you know, we work with teams across a number of different use cases. Some of them are interested in it for its privacy characteristics. Some of them are interested in it for its verifiability. Some are interested in it for its scalability. there's, yes, there's much more to ZK than just privacy. And I think people are finally, you know, starting to understand that and see why the teams that are deep in the trenches that are the researchers see it as an end game technology because it's much, if it was just privacy, there are lots of alternatives out there for facilitating privacy, but it's those other elements that make zero knowledge really special as well. Yeah, think the verifiability, especially in the AI world, verifiability is huge, especially verifying the models on which the agent was trained on, verifying that, verifying the data, even down to the inference level. Tell us about the expander and the work that you guys are doing with AI. Yeah. So, and I was actually just reading an article about this, this morning, but you know, I think AI, obviously if you're listening to this, you probably utilize AI on a daily basis. you know, in, in whether it's, you know, just interacting with chat GPT to, to brush up on areas that you may not have as much knowledge about, or, you know, potentially you're leveraging AI agents to make your workflows more efficient. But as AI becomes a bigger part of our lives and as AI starts to make decisions that are going to ramifications and potentially lots of value at stake or just could have huge impact, positive or negative, there is going to be a need for more transparency and more verifiability. Because right now, if an AI agent, let's say you give them a wallet and you fund that wallet with $1,000, and then you tell them to go off and you say, execute this trading strategy or go do this yield farming strategy for me. and you know, you check back in, in a month and now you've got a hundred bucks in that wallet and you want to know what went wrong. Well, you up until recently, you probably wouldn't be able to because AI is such a black box. but the, what we are really excited about is this idea of ZKML zero knowledge, machine learning, which offers this ability to. construct zero knowledge proofs, that, and verify that, you know, the model inference was done correctly or that the model was trained on data that it was expected to be trained on or that the model used was actually the model that you were expecting it to use. And so now you're adding in, some of this, this transparency back into the system. And so I think, you I believe that. in the not too distant future, everything built with AI will be utilizing ZKML to add this verifiability to their product or to their application. And the reason that this hasn't happened sooner is again, because up until recently, it would take days for you to generate a zero knowledge proof of a LLM inference, but with Expander and how performant it is, we have done recent benchmarks where we brought that down to a matter of hours. And we are optimistic by the end of the year, we will be able to get that down to minutes or seconds. And so we're doing a lot of work on kind of GPU acceleration and we're seeing some really positive things. actually I think, you know, we'll probably release some new benchmarks. If not this month, then definitely in March, that just show the tremendous improvements in performance that we're seeing on the ZKML front. That's really tremendous. Some of the benchmarks that you shared. Some of this is done off-chain, is that correct? The proof, the proving? proof generation is done off-chain. then proof verification can happen off-chain or on-chain. And then the goal is always, want to make a proof system that can be easily utilized. So whether that's something like ProofCloud where... If you wanted to tap into this, you could spin up a proof cloud instance and leverage our expertise to manage the hardware required. eventually, obviously the end goal is also to create the ability for users to generate these zero-knowledge proofs on their consumer hardware, whether it's their laptop or their cell phone. And there's a lot of progress being made in that context as well. That's really cool. Polyhedra has a token and there's a utility for it within the context of ZK Bridge. What about these other projects or these other offerings that you guys are developing right now? Will the Polyhedra token be involved in any of those? Absolutely. So the Polyhedra token, ZKJ, is the only token that we have. There's going to be utility across all of our products. I don't think actually we've touched on our new blockchain EXP chain, which is in Testnet now. But the gas token for EXP chain is ZKJ. It will be used or people will be able to stake it to secure the network. It will be used to pay fees. It will be used for governance. So yes, I mean, the utility of the ZKJ token is always expanding and it will be the token that we use to support all of our products moving forward. Yeah. Tell us about the EXP chain. And is it a layer one? it is a layer one network. We sat down and we kind of thought about, I was a developer building an AI application, or if I was a developer building a zero knowledge application, where would I deploy that application? And we couldn't come up with a good answer for that. And there's, you I think a lot of, maybe the, you know, more, established, blockchains realize the importance of zero knowledge proofs and the value that they can bring from a functionality standpoint, but maybe are slow moving to kind of implement some of these changes. The newer ones, you know, I think just lack the, the the focus and the general expertise in ZK that we have. And so we really wanted to or create a purpose-built blockchain that had everything that a developer would want to build an AI application. And so we're working on a number of different partnerships that are going to give access to various AI models and LLMs through eXp chain. We're working on a data marketplace. We're working on a with a bunch of different kind of AI agent applications to build on top of the eXp chain. But really what it comes down to is two things is this native support for ZK and Expander. And so that unlocks a lot of new kind of functionality. It's going to power our consensus mechanism, which is called expanded proof of stake, which is going to allow users to stake assets across a wide network of chains and secure eXp chain. It's going to power our single slot finality and it's going to power the ZKML and verifiable AI. And those proofs are going to be very cheap and very fast to verify on eXp chain, which is going to be one of the benefits of building there. We kind of thought, okay, well, if I was building an AI application or if I was building a ZK application, what would I want? What would I need to have the highest likelihood of success? And we're trying to incorporate all of that into eXp chain. And if you go onto the eXp chain website, you can actually see the roadmap, it's interactive. We are making sure that it stays up to date and it has kind of all of the steps from now until main net launch. And then even after main net that we'll need to in our eyes build the blockchain that is the everything chain for AI. That sounds really interesting. How's the community responding to the EXP chain and these other offerings that Polyhedra is developing? I imagine they're excited. yeah, I think everyone's extremely excited. I try to interact with them as much as possible. would say the engagement on our boot camps is really positive. The engagement on all of our marketing campaigns, on our posts when we announce our partners. And then the Polyhedra show, honestly, is probably where I get the most real-time feedback. I think we have thousands of concurrent viewers on the Polyhedra show. And when we ask them to send us questions that they have for us or our guests, we get hundreds, if not thousands of questions. So I think people are really excited. And every team that we speak to, their eyes kind of light up when we tell them what we're building with regards to EXP chain and ZKPytorch and ZKML and Expander. Is the Polyhedra show, is that a show on X or how are you guys doing that? Yeah, so we do a live stream. We actually use a product called StreamYard. And then we stream it to YouTube, X, and our Discord simultaneously. So we have viewers coming in from all over the place. I actually don't know where most of them are coming from. I know that, again, we're trying to get it wherever you want to watch it, we want to be there. I love it. think more projects need to do this. This is really, really cool. I'm going to catch the next one for sure. absolutely. I think I'll be on there this Thursday, 9 30 a.m. So we'd love to love to see you and love to see your audience there. That's awesome. Well, Eric, what, I guess some final words for the community and for the audience. What would you like to share about Polyhedra? Maybe how the community can, actually one more question before we end. I'm curious how you are segmenting developers. This is a question that I think most projects have because they have both a mix of token holders as an audience. and also developers as an audience. And how do you segment both and kind of work to meet the needs of both very different audiences with some overlap? Yeah, I think when we create a piece of content, we spend a decent amount of time beforehand trying to define who this is for. Is it for, like you said, a token holder who may not be technical but just wants to learn more about what we're building and what use cases it supports and may not be that interested in exactly how it works under the hood? Or are we building for, you know, the ZK developer who is comparing expanders to other proof systems and trying to is very interested in the benchmarks and is very interested in how it works and really is digging deep into, you know, some of the security questions that they may have. So I think it starts at the beginning. We, you know, we want to create content for each, like you said, each segment. in our community. So we spend time, I think, brainstorming and interacting with our audience and coming up with, a lot of times it's these questions that get asked over and over and over again. Those are the things that make for really good content because you have already validation that this is what they want to learn more about. And then you kind of put that a piece of content into a bucket. Is this for the casual crypto participant? Is this for a developer? Is this for, maybe it's for the BD and marketing team at another project. And so, I think defining that earlier and then when you're kind of going back to make sure you did a good job, like looking at... all of the content that we produced for January. Did we produce enough content for this audience and this audience and this audience and this audience and doing kind of a post-mortem so that you can continue to iterate and learn and make sure that you're addressing everyone and you're not leaving anyone behind. Yeah. And I think that's a pretty common question most projects have because it's, you know, attribution and in web three and crypto is hard and being able to segment your audience based on their persona is hard because of, you know, there's privacy concerns and, know, most crypto people don't want to participate in surveys necessarily. And so, but at the same time, as a marketer, you want to understand who you're serving. And so there's that. of polarity a little bit. You want to serve, you want to know who you're serving so you can serve them good stuff, but they don't necessarily want to tell you who they are. so it's here. and this does reveal a little bit more information about the user. And so some people might not be willing to do this, but we do have different roles in our Discord. We do have specific channels for developers where our dev rel and our engineers will spend time answering questions. In order to get access to those channels, you do need to authenticate via your GitHub account. And that we found is a good way of at least somewhat trying to identify who the developers are and who may be a more casual audience. I think that's a brilliant strategy. know, most projects, many projects use Telegram for their community, but those that use Discord have so many more options available to them, such as roles, being able to authenticate using GitHub for developers, super wise. And I think that, you know, as more projects kind of think about that as they attempt to segment their users, would, I think, really benefit from looking at Discord instead of just Telegram. I think that's really wise. And there's, there's a lot of AI tools out there that are actually also helping with, this, segmentation problem where you can, you know, Ask it. Okay. Well, tell us everyone who, you know, asked the question about this or ask the question about this door. you know, there are, are ways that you could, you know, kind of go in a roundabout way, but you know, who, give me a list of everyone who asked a technical question over the past year. And now you've got a list of probably your developer audience or at least the subset of it. No, that's really good advice, like a co-pilot, something like that. Well, Eric, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. Any final words you'd like to share with the audience about polyhedra? No, I just think, you know, if you are interested in what we're building, if you do believe in, you know, the role that AI is going to play in our life, but are maybe a little cautious and see, you know, the potential negative consequences that might come with it or that need to be addressed. These are the problems that were thinking about on a daily basis. We would love to hear from you. You can reach out to me on Twitter. My handle is at Vreeland, just my last name. You can join our Discord and ping me on there. You can reach me on Telegram. It's eVreeland. We are always interested in hearing from our community and from people building relevant applications and infrastructure that where we might be able to collaborate with them and add some value in the form of our expertise and kind of zero knowledge and ZKML. So I encourage you to reach out if that sounds interesting to you or you just want to learn more. And yeah, thanks for listening to the whole episode. If you got to this point, I really appreciate it. Eric Vreeland, Chief Strategy Officer, Polyhedra. Thank you. Thanks a lot.