Seb, co-founder of Sophon, welcome. Hey, thanks for having me, Peter. Let's begin with the product. think Sophon made a lot of waves recently and people are curious about it. And when they go to the website, the first thing they see is this beautiful lady looking up at the sky and are probably wondering what is going on? What's happening? Why is everyone talking about Sophon? Tell us about Sophon and maybe some of its differentiation kind of elements. Yeah, I like that you mentioned the website and kind of the feeling that it gives you the, cause it feels kind of like natural. feels, I think it feels fresh. It feels certainly very different to the way that most crypto products are presented. And that's obviously very intentional, right? Everything about Sophon really started roughly a year and a half ago. when I realized. crypto was getting a little tired or boring. And I felt like we had really, we had onboarded most of the people that we had in the addressable audience, let's say, who were going to use products the way they were currently being presented. Like we were not really onboarding new users to the space. Most of the people who were building crypto products or using crypto products. fell in sort of an early adopter category, I suppose, or technologists, let's say. I think we had, I think we really gotten to the maximum amount of people there. There is an argument, tangentially, that some people make. that we onboarded a lot of people through meme coins later on 2024, primarily through the Phantom Wallet. But I don't really consider that proper onboarding because, even though they're first time users, they're just Apple paying a hundred bucks. and then swapping to buy a shit coin, most likely losing money. And then that's it, right? They're not performing any other actions on chain. Really. They're not really using any other crypto products. So I don't really consider that proper onboarding, right? So the realization came, okay, well, We need to, or at least I was interested in figuring out how we were going to get the next wave of people on chain. And, to do that, you have to sort of think about who are those people, right? Who's, who's this huge bucket of folks who are using tech products on a day-to-day basis, but they're just not using crypto and think about why are they not using crypto and. how they are using tech products on a day-to-day basis. Those were the two big questions, Like studying all of the habits that people have, the way that they interact with technology, sort of having a very empathetic approach towards this. And then number two, thinking, okay, well, why is crypto not something that people are attracted to, right? Is it a problem with the way we present it, the way we build businesses around it? Those are several. different issues there that we can unpack if you'd like. And so we decided to build something that we thought could start solving this. primarily in my opinion, it's through product. Having a product led company, not an engineering led company, and having this very deep appreciation for design for UI, UX, and kind of creating this homogenous experience. that feels and looks very much like what you would consider a Web2 product. And the reason for doing that is because you are playing on the need to make sure this, that most people have. if you think about most... traditional internet products or tech products that come out today. They're built using design systems that folks understand quite intuitively, like quite natively, right? Anybody between the age of 10 and 50 years old, you send them a new app on the app store or maybe like a new website to book a holiday or something. And typically they can figure things out in 10 seconds because the design behind it is very intuitive to them. They've been doing, using these designs for decade or more. And crypto kind of broke that, right? Because you're telling people go left, go right, do this, do that, forget it. And I think that works very well with the early adopters. But at certain point for mass market or mass retail, people are not necessarily going to learn all these things. just, it's not going to happen. So that's what we decided to study and that's what we decided to build. then think about what are the cool use cases and products that we can build and weave in to bring folks on chain and have them use crypto because we believe in crypto and what it can unlock. And as you studied your users and I imagine you interviewed them take us through the process of like what you did, what you learned, and how that you know the learnings kind of made its way into the product that you guys developed into Sophon. It's really not that difficult. That's actually quite simple. There's such a wealth of data, of case studies, of examples, of traditional, again, what I would call Web2 products or designs and what works and what doesn't work to get people's attention, to reward them, what people like, what people don't like, what they gravitate to. And for some reason, when people are building crypto products, we just never think about that. And we think about, maybe it's because a lot of crypto products are built by crypto users. So they're building them for other crypto users where they're thinking in these dimensions, which is fine, right? I mean, if it works and you're successful, then you will onboard and you will have a solid audience, but you're really limiting yourself. And for me, this was the... This was the big thing. I didn't want us to limit ourselves to just the existing super crypto native audience, although it's a very important one. And we are building for those folks as well. was the ambition where I think things get really interesting is if you can open up this whole new greenfield, right? This whole new paradigm and think about how you can get new people in. And that was basically what we did. did. Yeah. Based on my experience, I think probably one of the root causes for the love of complexity and using complex language and complex heuristics and user interfaces probably comes from highly technical founders or engineers. And for some reason, they get like an ego boost from making things overly complex when actual users want things more simple. I'm seeing right now, based on many interviews I've done, there's kind of that realization that let's get back to kind of simplicity. But not too simple. You know, one thing we know as well as that, if you make stuff far too simple or too dumb, It's almost antagonizing the user in a way. Users like stuff which has a little bit of complexity that you need to figure out, but the figuring out is the part that just sparking the right amount of curiosity is one of the hardest things to do with product design. But if you do it correctly, you can get your users really, really interested in using something. If you make it too complicated, you lose them. Yeah. And the critical point of stimulating curiosity and at the same time kind of being a few steps ahead of them so that you have a better understanding of the intuitiveness of the product. How do you arrive at that? And I imagine that's a qualitative process that you take versus anything quantitative. Sorry, have to ask the question again. I'm not sure I understood it correctly. Yeah, the, you mentioned curiosity and you also mentioned intuitiveness. And so as a product developer, how do you arrive at that critical point of, you know, what's the point where it's intuitive and you also stimulate curiosity? I imagine that's a, that's a qualitative process versus anything quantitative. Yeah, it's about, well, yeah, we kind of try and build stuff that we think we'd like to use. I'm not an engineer. I'm quite technical, but I wouldn't consider myself a technical founder. But what I am is extremely observant of how people use things. And it basically went through this through observation. and then I think really understanding the subject matter as well. This is probably the only case where I think being mid curve is actually a really good thing. Cause if we take this classic bell curve meme on the right-hand side, you're going to have super highly technical founders who are building very technical products. And if they're building their product, around these technicalities, you're going to end up losing or not really communicating with the end consumer, right? Because you're not thinking in their shoes. And at the other end, a lot of people have tried to consumer facing products or applications in crypto, only thinking from a consumer perspective, right? So people who are not really crypto native, I think saw crypto as either an easy way to earn money or to raise so that they'll bake whatever product that they were building and have crypto in it. But because they didn't understand the crypto elements, or they were not highly crypto native, they didn't get the right audience mix. And ultimately they failed. And I think what makes me as a founder and then the team that I've built very, very good at what we do in very special or sort of in a unique position is that we understand both very well. We're able to be highly crypto native. but at the same time also, yeah, I think empathy is the word that I like the most have this very empathetic approach and, observation of, how, and, users use tech and how we can kind of like gently bridge them to using crypto. Yeah, so we've established that Sophon, one of its key visions or missions is let's build something for the mainstream, for retail. At the same time, there's another target audience, which I imagine that's really important also, are developers that build applications on top of Sophon. Tell us about your approach there and how you view developers and the work that you're doing to bring more applications to Sophon. Yep. So actually the way that we're addressing developers and the way that we're building our go-to-market or sort of our strategic differentiation with regards to users revolves around the same concept. And the concept is data and in particular using ZKTLS to do this. So We felt, I felt super hard about this. The team felt super hard about this. Data, user generated data is a commodity and it is one of the most important commodities of the 21st century. A lot of internet products and internet companies are built around user data. There's a lot of value there. Somehow this data does not exist in the crypto space. The only data that you really have are price feeds from oracles, which is the backbone of Of DeFi, I suppose. But beyond this, there's nothing really that crypto has tried to do or been successful in doing around user generated data. I think this is a massive opportunity. And this is where ZKTLS comes in. And ZKTLS is basically allowing you to take web proofs of different kinds of data points that you're generating, whether it's using your Ticketmaster account. your bank account, all sorts of different things, your Uber, your Spotify, whatever, and proving these things on chain, whatever data points that you want to be using, but in a private way. And this is revolutionary. It's really like an aha moment that allows you to unlock a lot of the behavior that consumers have on a day-to-day basis. So you're not really asking anybody to change anything they're doing. It's just like, well, look at whatever your you're doing on a daily basis with tech products, it's almost certainly generating data. Well, why don't you bring that data on chain, um, verifiably prove it in a way that's private. Now at the other end, if you can start telling developers, Hey, there's this completely new concept of data that we're bringing on chain, which is aggregated, very high quality user data. And you can build saying you can use, you can kind of like access this data hub. We call it the Sophon Data Hub. And you can build things on top of this data. You can query this data. And you've essentially created a completely new paradigm of what's possible to build a crypto. And this is something that's going to happen later on this year when we start to give access to developers and that sort of thing. But I think it's going to be unbelievably exciting. The point for me is always to... create an environment where experimentation is encouraged. So I don't want people, you know, I don't need developers building five different versions of a Dex on Sophon, right? That's completely uninteresting to me. There's one Dex on Sophon. It works perfectly well. And if people want to swap, they'll use that Dex. We don't need five times the same Dex. That's uninteresting and it doesn't advance anything. However, if I've created this completely new paradigm with a data hub that aggregates consumer data on chain, and then people can access it and build things on top, and I'm supporting them and building out crazy ideas or things like this, that's actually really exciting, Because you've created a green field and, you know, who knows what can come out of it. And that's the sort of behavior that I'm trying to encourage from developers. And. And yeah, I think once we start to do this, people will notice, people will get excited. And of course, we'll have a foundation to support people building that sort of thing. This is always what you need to do. But I think it will also be about the novelty. and the fact that you're working with data, which is fun. I think people will come and they will just want to try. Let's spend a minute on ZKTLS for the audience. So you've described Sophon as a, or it's been in some of the docs, it's been described as a hyperchain built on ZK sync. Maybe help the audience understand why that's important. Maybe spend a minute on ZKTLS and you mentioned consumer data. What type of data are we talking about? I understand that any kind of transaction can be You can create a proof for any kind of transaction. Tell us about the verification side and how are you inspiring developers to come up with their own ideas? Because you could, I can see a situation where developers want to build on Sophon, but they feel overwhelmed. There's so much available data. They don't know exactly what to do with it. And so it would be up to the team to kind of help inspire. And so maybe tell us about your thinking around that. Yeah, for the first, there's several questions there, but the first part. We will, we will never really talk about, too publicly where we're building or the tech that we're using. I don't, I think that for developers, it's important, but for the end user, it's not. And I've said this in the past. It's a little bit like if as an end user, you're using Netflix or Airbnb, nobody says, Hey, I'm logging onto my AWS account to use Netflix. Right. Who gives it? Yeah. Who cares what cloud service it's built on? You just want to log on and it works and you're using a product. And at Sophon, I really wanted us to be a product of that company or engineering service product. But the engineering part is a vital part of the company. Don't get me wrong. And the fact that we're using the ZK Stack, tapping into the elastic network, there's all sorts of technicalities which are giving us some very nice advantages. But it's not something that I think the end user cares about or needs to know about. No, no. There are some things which are great. So for instance, if we were to talk about it now for a couple of minutes, you know, using the DZK stack, has some pretty cool advantages. You have native account abstraction. So the account abstraction primitives are baked into the network, which allows you to have much deeper kind of integrations when it comes to building paymasters, sponsored gas. The gas token for Sophon is the Sophon token. We've been sponsoring gas since we launched in December to give basically like a nice user experience for folks. That'll change in the future and protocols will be able to sponsor by buying some Sophon or by swapping it for their own tokens. You know, can do all sorts of pretty exciting things. these paymasters. And then obviously the gas transactions are very cheap. There's no real system overload that can happen as if you had on mainnet ETH, for instance. There's no gas. The way that the ZK sync codebase functions, you don't really have gas spikes. So even if load goes up, up, things get queued. But you don't have a gas for it. can happen. If you were doing a big mint, or if you were selling tickets to a festival, for instance, that would be an interesting part. So from a technical perspective, we like the tech stack. think it's the most battle tested is ZK tech stack and that most things will be using ZK in the future. I don't remember the next part. I your question about how we're help develop these things, right? How we think about user data. So I'll give you an example. The whole part of the... the Sophon Data Hub, it's a concept that, uh, actually I coined that I call social oracles. Um, and the idea behind a social oracle is that a system that verifies and brings online things like achievements, reputation, social influence. It can bring all of these things on chain, all of the habits that you're doing on a regular basis, so the data that you're generating with things that you're doing on a regular basis, but without revealing personal data. And sure, if I just know what you order when you order food online or what concert tickets you bought, not super valuable if it's just you, Peter, if it's just me. But actually by aggregating and analyzing all of these individual actions, we can actually transform these like social scattered signals into something that's actually like collective intelligence about how everyday consumers use things on chain. When you use crypto products, you're always using a wallet, right? This is not very intuitive, it's not very obvious to people who've never used crypto before. So that's why we go back to the concept of an account. So when users are using Sophon, they're logging into the Sophon account, they're creating a Sophon account using their Gmail, or their Apple Passkey. Those are concepts that are much more familiar to people, right? And once we bake all of this together, it enables applications to unlock trust-minimized privacy preserving proofs of engagement at scale. All of this aggregated social data, you can then use it to power exclusive access, rewards, AI driven personalization. You can allow applications to build reputation, to track influence, even things like civil resistance, right? And so the power of data And in the sense of the social Oracle, it's not in the single users data, but it's rather in the cumulative weight of thousands of people and turning this raw activity into verifiable social capital. And that's what we're super excited about. And then developers, can ask them, or if you can ask them, you why should you use Sophon? Let's say you have a database of a million users and we know who's played what game, who's bought what meme coin. who spent what money on Uber, on buying tickets to go to the Champions League, or a concert ticket, or whatever, and you can start tapping all of these things. I can see how that can be quite powerful. The types of products that can come out of that are gonna be quite unique because of the data set that's beneath it. mean, is something that everybody's generating data on a regular basis. And they're doing it for free. You don't monetize. There's no way of really monetizing your data. And it sounds a bit crazy. And to me, at the same time, it sounds incredibly obvious that data can act like as a form of online currency. You can be, if there was a service, and in this case it's Sophon, that was aggregating, collecting data that you anyways already are generating, and it's doing so in a private way. So you resist all the GDPR things, et cetera, and then tells you, hey, you can just create an account on Sophon, it's super easy. And you can farm, you can get these rewards, you can get access to certain things. concert tickets, loyalty, social verification, games. It doesn't matter, Traditional companies pay a lot of money to access aggregated advertising data. And that data quality is, it's not amazing, right? Like if you want to target people using Meta or even on X, or some people buy, people do this already, right? You can buy aggregated data from Visa or MasterCard. but you don't know exactly what you're getting. Whereas here, if you were able to actually pinpoint based on the different applications that users share their data for, because you can share data for basically everything that you're doing, I think you can attract a lot of people. Tell us about the data acquisition side. I understand the privacy aspect, using ZK to keep your transactions private is super important and definitely something that the user cares about. How are you able to acquire or help, I guess, how does the platform acquire data on behalf of users? it's just generating web proofs off of the different applications that you're using on a regular basis. But I don't want to go into the technicalities of these things because that's where you start to lose the users. The point is that folks are using... technology on a regular basis. your, your habits are generating data, whether you're playing chess.com, you could be playing a game on, on steam, ordering a taxi. doesn't matter. Everything's generating data. And if you can basically log into somewhere opt into just verifiably and privately share this data. And then in return, which costs you nothing, right? Cause you're already doing it anyways. And then in return, start to get rewards for it. I guarantee you, everybody's going to love this. It's a neutral positive exercise. There's no downside. zero downside. And is the opt-in part, is that live right now on the SoFly network? No, that is something that we will be releasing at the end of this quarter. got it. Okay, that does sound very, very interesting. I mean, it's, it's, it's what you'll be doing anyway. Why not, you know, get received some compensation for it? Or? Yeah. get. the next wave of users interested in crypto without presenting it as crypto. need to stop. presenting crypto as tokens or meme coins or shit coins and highly speculative PVP exercises and expecting the rest of the world to kind of like stop what they're doing and come use us. That's not gonna happen. And we're focused intently on creating PVE exercises. So something like this that I've been describing to you for the last 15 minutes, for instance. Yeah. Everybody, your friends, your family members, whatever, everybody can opt into something like this. And if we're successful in what we're building, if it works, reap the rewards, right? Monetize their data. Their data can sort of become their currency online to do different things. But it doesn't have to be that You lose for me to win. Whereas with everything that we've been doing in crypto for the last year, all these meme coins and shit coins, you need to lose for me to win. Right? Love the I I love the so fun Oracle I think that is could be a tremendous unlock for so many potential products. As with all products, an example use case will be really important. And as Sophon kind of starts to, as all of this data becomes aggregated on the Sophon network and available for developers in a private way, what types of products do you see coming out of this using the Sophon Oracle? I think so to start we can do some really interesting things with ticketing. You need to think about, who's sort of the target people that we could have as a frontier technology company today? So definitely millennials, definitely Gen Z. And if you're building for the future, then you want to be thinking about Gen Alpha as well, right? They're a little bit young now, but they're highly, highly online. generation as well. And think about how those folks are spending their time and their money today. We know that it's much more focused on experiences, right? That it could be focused on things like travel, music, sports. All of these things are consumption, but it shows how people are spending their money today. And then when it comes to material things, a lot of it comes out of online activity, The reason why Chanel or Balenciaga have a fashion show, it's not for the people at the fashion show. It's because it creates content from the fashion show that then gets consumed online and then drives people to appreciate the brand, have an emotional connection with it and spend money, right? right? All of these things, again, revolve around data. I think we can do very interesting things with ticketing. different kinds of cultural moments I think we can build around. I also think to satisfy the more, because we can do both sides of the bell curve, right? If you want to satisfy more the side of the crypto native folks who want to sort of fun money games, you could build prediction markets based off of social data. This would be a completely new concept, right? You can think of of something like polymarket maybe, but built off of... future social data. Like how will people think or react about something? You could build. You could, yeah, these are different examples of ways that people will access it. There's also kind of an enterprise play here where, let me give you like an example of a go-to-market strategy that I think is pretty cool. Let's say I, I, so I live in, Europe. I love football, which you guys in the U S call soccer. And, every year we have the champions league. It's like the equivalent of the super bowl. Sorry, it says recordings. Can you hear me correctly? Okay. Sorry. Let's say that I buy 20 tickets to the final this year and I do a small campaign on Instagram and TikTok that I'm giving away those tickets for free. And all you need to do is create a Sophon account and share some data. It could be your Ticketmaster data, your Spotify data, your whatever you've bought on Amazon recently. I'm just giving examples, right? And then if you invite 10 friends or share 10 more data sources, you get a multiplier of chance to win these tickets. And then some folks win the tickets. I send them to the Champions League final with the camera crew. We film it. It's amazing. Everybody has the best time. all of a sudden, Sophon a crypto company, but it's also kind of cool. Like it's created these special moments. People will recognize this, right? recognize this, Now, next time... let's say something like a UFC final or a big concert or a fashion brand that wants to do a drop, people who typically would spend money advertising might come to Sophon and they say, hey, you have access to these users. You have very high quality data that they're sharing with you because they know that they're rewards driven to them. Instead of spending Instead of spending half a million doing a why don't I give you half a million and actually we're marketing directly to your users, right? I think that, but that's more of a long-term play, but this is something that can be truly revolutionary where companies that are spending so much money on ads, it's actually going to the users more directly, right? So you're removing the middleman in a way. And everybody's happy because the enterprises are getting much higher user quality. much higher retention and engagement most likely, and the users can enjoy much more of the benefits from the data that they're generating. This is the direction that whether it's us or another company that does it, I truly believe we're going in as a very data-driven economy. So it might as well be Sophon that solves it. makes sense with the... kind of cultural events type companies and I can see sport leagues being very interested in this as well as really and you mentioned and we can also get into it with you the partnership that Sophon has with a ticketing company. Tell, look maybe let's go into that as a since that's happening right now. What can the audience I guess expect from from this partnership and what's your vision on that? I for the ticketing stuff that we're doing, which will probably release Q2, maybe Q3, the big thing will be secondary markets, which is a big problem for ticketing and which crypto helps solve. And that's actually one big use case that I think is it just works. People want to go to these events. They want to buy tickets. Usually the tickets are sold out, so they go to the secondary markets. And if you build secondary markets that are much more verifiable, are much less scammy or ripping people off, they'll just use it. It's a plain old business case that you can do on Sophon that just works. I think crypto in general, like the market's been exhausted by all of these PVP exercises that drained a lot of people's money, created fatigue or exhaustion in the users, and actually folks are craving just normal real businesses or use cases that make sense and that generate income. Yeah. Let's, on the ticketing stuff, so I have some, maybe I can share an experience with you. So my wife is a big Swiftie and I took her to a couple of Taylor Swift shows outside of international. Went to Mexico City, went to Australia. I mean, she's a huge Swiftie, right? And I didn't know this, but there are some countries where on the secondary market, you are not allowed to sell tickets above a certain amount. And so there's some, it's quite regulated versus in the US you could buy, you could sell a ticket for, there is no limit on how much you could sell a ticket for in the secondary market. And so how are you viewing, I guess, the regulatory landscape when it comes to like secondary ticket market? And the so fun play in that or how does that affect the users and so fun? It's not something that I've, the regulatory side isn't something that I'm super well versed in. would have to look with the team that we're working with, but in general, think that having a sort of one-stop shop that transcends borders in order to do these things is always going to be better. Right. And we're increasingly, by having our, our economies digitized and online, we're increasingly doing things that are sort of cross border. That's the whole premise of, of crypto. Right. or is to do these things without necessarily having to be subject to local laws or things like this. But the point is to do it in a way that helps all of the end users, right? So you don't want to have price gouging or things like this. This is inherently a negative experience. So for instance, in the case of your wife, you've bought tickets, let's say on Ticketmaster several times. You could share that data. and you can prove that your wife is a Swifty. You can prove that you flew to Australia and Mexico City to see Taylor Swift concert. And that would give your wife, if Taylor Swift was doing her concert tickets on Sophon in the secondary market, that your wife is a real friend. And that as a result, she should have a much higher priority in buying these tickets. than me, for instance, who I don't think I could name your Taylor Swift song. And let's say that it was looked at in collaboration with Coca-Cola. Coca-Cola really wanted just to target the major cities. They would be able to target your wife instead of targeting you. Yeah. Right? Who's never heard of J-Large? They'll tell your wife. I really don't think I could name a Taylor Swift song. And that's kind of the point, right. Of doing these things. And I think that's what that's sort of the direction that's so fun is taking things in. It's taking. the future of data economics, baking in a crypto element to it using technology like CKTLS, building products that are beautiful to use that feel familiar that are intuitive. And by doing this, we have the ambition to create this next wave of user adoption for crypto, which goes beyond the entire relationship. Yeah. I don't know if you remember. I'm thinking in terms of go to market now. I don't know if you remember Mint. But Mint was this free application where you can connect all of your accounts to. And would aggregate all of your accounts, your bank accounts, whatever, into a really nice dashboard. And their go-to-market was amazing. And they were acquired by Intuit, I think within like five years. But the value proposition that Mint had was for the user, you can connect all of your accounts and you would aggregate it into this nice dashboard so you could see it in one picture and make decisions out of it. But that allowed them to have a bunch of data that Intuit did not have. And so that's why Intuit decided to acquire them and shut them down. And now it's Intuit's part of the TurboTax product. Yeah. the way you're describing Sophon, I'm thinking of something similar like that. It's a really great go-to-market, but hard to do. Of course hard to do otherwise others would be doing it. Right. And so the hard to do part is, you know, it was hard for Mint to do, but now, know, the Sophon is a Web3 product. Now there's kind of the Web3 kind of barrier also. But which I understand that you're, that the Sophon product is focused on mainstream trying to make it very easy, which I think could really work. I think there's a lot of potential there. There is, you know, it comes down to execution after, right? mean, time and again, if you, if you study, entrepreneurship, or how all of, or a lot of the great companies of the last couple of decades in the tech space have happened, most, most of the founders or investors will tell you it's not the idea to the execution. All right. Plenty of people have great ideas. but it comes down to. whether you can implement these ideas, operate around them, and then execute. And that's what I'm focused the most on, is just executing. I have the idea. I know where I want us to go. It's my role as the founder to sort of have this vision and bring my company towards this goal. But it doesn't work if we don't execute well. And that's where I put a lot of energy. And it's where I think as an industry, we're ready for it. ready because people want something else. They want something different, right? And on the tech side, I think the tech is ready to support. is something that 2021 last cycle, know, Polygon was best BD team in the world. They were doing all of these huge deals with Disney, Instagram, Starbucks. They were so nicely positioned to just kill it. And unfortunately, you can't market, rather, the Luna FTX. Those indigenous events didn't help. But I think just the bandwidth wasn't there yet to really support the customizability. But now it is. The infrastructure is really good now. You can build these things. People mean TPS all the time, but like there's a lot of block space. We're good. Let's just build shit that people want to use. That's that. That's the thing we need to do. I like that. What do you think? So the long-term view that you have, like what led you to have that long-term view when many in crypto right now are very kind of short-term focus, like you're very long-term focused. What's driving you to think that way? I can afford to. You know, we did, we did this, we didn't talk about this now because it doesn't really matter, but we did do this very big note sale last year where we raised roughly 21,000 ETH. So at the time it was around $60 million. And that's given us ample, ample breathing room. You know, some founders do a raise, obviously for much, you know, most seed rounds are much smaller. And you can build for nine months, but then you've got to go back to raising again. And I raised the seed round as well. We did raise a $10 million seed round and that consumes a lot of your time. I mean, when you're in raising mode, it's very distracting. And so we're very fortunate to have a fat treasury, which I don't waste, right? I operate a very lean team. People work very hard, but it allows us to focus and also to kind of like think beyond. the end of the year. And that comfort is actually, if you internalize it well, it gives us a nice advantage and the ability to be long-term, long-term thinkers. And I think you should always, you know, you should dream of this one. Present yourself far into the future. how the industry could look like and build towards this. And if you're successful, then something actually pretty special or unique can happen. And that's the vibe I get when, know, in speaking to you for the last 45 minutes that you're a dreamer, that, and it shows in the product, you know, straight from the homepage. There's this, it's, get the sense of you guys are thinking big, you're thinking the future and you're building for it now. And it's comforting to hear that you feel that crypto is ready right now. that the market is ready and you're building this product that's going to where the puck is headed. Yeah, I think the world is ready too. The fact that Trump's administration is much more crypto friendly and that they will build regulation, sandboxes, et cetera, around crypto is a positive thing. The last administration, not only was it kind of, it wasn't an anti-crypto, but there was a lack of regulation or there was a lack of regulatory clarity. Like the reason a lot of things were at a standstill in the U.S., which is still the most important, important country when it comes to consumption was people didn't know what they could or couldn't do. And nobody wanted to make too big of a gamble with their companies, seeing traditional companies, not crypto companies. Because if you were to make a mistake, then a couple of years down the line, some laws come out and all of a sudden it looks like you had broken the law and you didn't know you were breaking the law and then you got a problem. And that's just because regulation didn't exist. People didn't know, it a security? Is it not? Like is it black or white? And people were in a gray zone. And for these sorts of things, you need to be in the black or white zone. And that's starting to happen now. So the premise for me is that by the end of the year, I think a lot of businesses will start to look at integrating crypto into their business logic or their back ends. And you will have this sort of revival of traditional companies, businesses, brands looking to crypto. And it will probably look a little bit like 2021, but all of a sudden. it starts to happen. And you just need a few of the big guys to start doing this for everybody else to pilot after, right? Like we know like humans like to follow opportunities like this. So you just need a couple of these big companies to start doing that again or a crypto company to have very big success. on the consumer side and then everybody's going to start wanting to do this. Well, let's hope so fun it's gonna be one of those Yeah, fingers crossed. Let's do it. Well, Seb, thank you so much for taking the time to spend with us and tell us about Sophon and your big dreams and gives the audience something to look forward to and get involved in now. Definitely, definitely. Thanks for having me, Peter. Thanks.