Ben Celermajer, Synthetix Strategy Lead, welcome. Cheers, thanks for having me, Peter. Synthetix is like a household name in crypto. It's been around for a while and want to definitely go through the kind of how did we get here kind of narrative and story because I think Synthetix has quite a story to tell and we'd love to hear that from you. But as a strategy lead, which is kind of a unique title in crypto, tell us what you do, how you got into crypto. Yeah, so I actually got into crypto in 2017, blockchains in 2016, and I draw that distinction almost embarrassingly, but I was working at Deloitte as a management consultant, specifically for finance back office. And I thought as blockchain is this transformative technology that can change how the future of finance operates. At that stage, being at a big corporate, it was all private blockchains. was IBM's Hyperledger. It was our three quarter. so it of went down that path for about a year before kind of recognizing that the power of blockchains was really in these open permissionless networks instead of these closed private networks. And that's when I discovered Bitcoin and Ethereum and started trending more down that path and left Deloitte and got into crypto. And funnily enough, one of my first investments was in Haven, the Haven ICO. And seven, eight years later, here I am at Synthetix. Yeah, so you're alluding to Haven before the rebrand to Synthetix and definitely want to talk about that. But I want to first comment on the permission kind of blockchains that the more institutional ones. was active in the, I forget the name of it, but Ethereum, the Ethereum Foundation had a working group of kind of people that were working in industry. focused on like blockchain, some were permission, some were permissionless, but it was really kind of how do we get blockchain more adopted within these institutions? I forget the name of the working group, but I was active in a couple of them. And it was so promising back in 2017, 2017 era. And I was part of one where we were helping a large supply chain provider adopt blockchain for their you know, in their supply routes. And I remember how painful it was because it turned out that the issue was not a technology issue. It was a change management issue because the current software they had had been in place for years, like decades. And essentially blockchain would have kind of replaced them. And so you had all these people, hundreds of people at that point that were trained in this new software. and they had set aside a couple of people to learn this new thing, this application that was built on Ethereum to scan items in and then it gets posted on the chain. And so it dawned on me at that point, okay, this is not a technology issue. There's like a changing management thing. You've got people that have been trained on this software and the thought of having to learn a new software is like kind of scary. And then you've got this incumbent piece of software that's been entrenched for years at this company. And they're going to fight tooth and nail not to be replaced. And so that's when I realized there's more going on here than just technology. Yeah, I think for a lot of the corporates, it was also that sense of loss of power as you kind of like hand over the keys to this network that other people have access to or other people have permission to. it's this weird kind of push-pull where they want to keep everything close to their chest and they're nervous about the changes you say, but also what that means without fully understanding. how private, how secure blockchains can be. And so I think that's where a lot of the sticking point of friction was, at least with my experience in 2016. Yeah, I agree. Well, let me, before we get into Synthetix, maybe I can read a blog post from Kane. So Kane is one of the founders of Synthetix. He shared this blog post on March 3rd, and then maybe we can use it as a jumping off point or point of departure into kind of, you know, where Synthetix is right now and maybe how we got here. But I want to read this and then maybe get your reaction to it. So Kane wrote this March 3rd, 2025, a new direction. This post will outline a new direction for Synthetix. Last year, I realized Synthetix was making progress following the governance overhaul, but a more radical change was needed to return to greatness. So I wrote, SIP 420. The 420 pool is now open for pre-deposits. I believe 420 is the best chance for Synthetix to leverage its strengths and carve out a place in modern DeFi. This post marks the start of my campaign to win back the hearts and minds of the SNX community and soon the entire DeFi and crypto ecosystem. Firstly, I will preamp the reply guys and say, yes, I know the price is bad. Okay, we don't need to get into that. But I think there's a couple of things here that I think is interesting and want your reaction. Synthetix was clearly one of the OG players in the DeFi space. you know, six, seven years ago. things have changed, lots of things have changed since then. It actually pre, it was one of the precursors to what we call DeFi Summer. Like Synthetix was like around before DeFi Summer. And so what happened over that time period, and I guess where are we now? And what is Kane describing here as SIP 420? Yeah. So I think taking a step back, like, you mentioned, Synthetix launched as Haven in, I think it raised money in 2017 and launched early 2018. And so it has been around for a long time. it, I mean, from my experience, it actually catalyzed DeFi Summer with with its staking dot sol and kind of conceptualization of what liquidity mining meant. And then I think it kind of expanded and grew from there. Um, to your, to your 10,000 % APY food farms and whatnot. But, um, but kind of post that I think Synthetix did really well at kind of capturing community, capturing attention, capturing narrative. Um, and, and it's perps V2 product was one of the first real AMMs for derivatives markets that got some traction. Um, I think post that though, Synthetix really, uh, struggled, I think to kind of determine the right trade-off between product performance and decentralization and really led down this kind of, do you maintain as much decentralization as possible? And I think what that resulted in was that resulted in trade-offs that it had to make with the product performance that seemed to have proven historically to be a miscalculation. And so if I look at what they launched with V3, It kind of went down the path of AMMs again, where I think the market was leaning towards order book, as we saw with the YDX and the volumes that they were getting and now hyper liquid. And I think it also tried to, as I mentioned before, lean into trading off product performance at the expense of, sorry, to the benefit of product decentralization. And I think as we look at things like, again, if you look at hyperlink growth, if you look at what you can doing or what Kane is doing now at Infonex, users are a lot more willing to give up aspects of decentralization if it means having a great product. Even I think the penny dropped for me, even when Maker decided to accept USDC as collateral, I was like, that's it. They're done. They're the decentralized stablecoin that's a USDC wrapper now. And they've just continued to grow ever since. And so I think what we've seen over the last couple of years is you don't have to be a decentralization maxi to get a good product to market or a product that the market adopts, accepts and utilizes. And so I think what we're looking at this year for Synthetix is we're looking at kind of reassessing some of those trade-offs that made historically and looking at how we can create a performant product that's in line with your centralized exchanges, it's in line with your hyperliquids or your leading DeFi. or on chain, should say, derivatives markets and kind of trying to shape Synthetix as a product led company, which is one of the big changes since the governance referendum in late 2024 as well. I think historically, Synthetix has been this protocol to protocol business almost where it's a liquidity layer that empowers integrators. We flipped that on its head late last year and said, we're going to be the core integrator. We're going to be the key product driver for Synthetix. And that gives us the power to really understand what our end user wants, drive the narrative we want, the strategy we want. Whereas previously we were very dependent on others building what we thought the market wanted and what we thought the products that would most highlight Synthetix were. And there was often just that bit of strategy misalignment where Other protocols had their own priorities. They wanted to integrate lots of perps because that meant that their product got the most reach, the most breadth, the most value to their token holders. Whereas by realigning everything to the one core product, which is Synthetix, we feel like that's a strength point that we can leverage and we can lean on throughout this year. You've shared a lot there, you history as well as really some product thinking, really, really innovative product thinking and also kind of some hard self-reflection because, you know, I remember Synthetix was really a B2B play where other protocols would use Synthetix, but it was really a step, you know, two steps away from the end user, the customer in this case, And then, and so... But what I'm hearing now is that late last year, know, Synthetix kind of came to this realization that, you know, it needs to have that relationship with the end user. And so you made some product decisions based on that philosophy. So this new direction that Kane talks about, I guess, how could you, I guess for the listener, how would you summarize this new direction? You know, maybe some key points and then we can go into each one. Yeah. So think leaning into what Kane said, it really starts with the token holder at the core of the Synthetix ecosystem. And over the last few years, the move to V3 removed the necessity of SNX as the key form of collateral that backstops the system. And I think value accrual to that token kind of got lost and Synthetix had historically high staking rates. think through DeFi Summer, was mid 80 % of all SNX was staked and there was less than 5 % of SNX on exchanges. And so it was able to do so because it gave holders a great value proposition to stake because it was kind of at the core of every decision that went into the protocol and it was what was the heartbeat of the Synthetix ecosystem. Over the last few years, that's kind of got lost a bit. And so what Kane's hoping to achieve with SIP420 is is starting from that kind of first principle of put the token at the core of the protocol again, and then build great product around it to support that core. so SIP-420 is a new staking mechanism whereby when a user historically staked SNX, they were able personally to mint SUSD and do whatever they wanted with it. They could trade that on perps, they could sell it for for ETH or whatever meme coin they wanted. But the realization is that that's One, that's kind of capital inefficient because you have to maintain quite a high collateralization ratio because as we know in the crypto space, you can't trust users to be prudent managers of that capital. And so with a volatile asset underpinning SUSD, you need to be quite conservative there. If you can put the power of SUSD minting against that collateral in the protocol and define how the protocol can do that, i.e. if you can define that the protocol can only yield farm with that via stable protocols like Athena, like Aave, like Maker, then you can be a lot more liberal with the collateralization ratio and capital efficient. And so one of the proposals is instead of allowing your user to mint at 20%, the value of the collateral, the protocol commit 50 % of the value of the collateral. And so that just makes the whole system more capital efficient. And what it also does is by allowing the protocol to mint and not the user to mint, you can use those assets to empower the products within the protocol. So you can provide liquidity to our perps markets. You can provide open interest to our volts and trading strategies across our derivatives markets. as well as again kind of going and sourcing yield from attractive opportunities across the ecosystem. And so SIP 420 again, it really just tries to put SNX back at the core and the heart of the Synthetix ecosystem. And I think that realization and activity to reorient activities and value back to the SNX token, I think makes a lot of sense and I think brings a lot of confidence to the community members. Can we talk about, you're describing a two-sided market or part of it is a two-sided market, like what to do with SUSD? Hmm. you stake SNX and then you mint SUSD or now the protocol mints SUSD. And then the SIP 420 kind of defines what can be done with that SUSD. that kind of what I'm hearing? How does that, I guess, how do you determine like what can be done with it other than the community kind of through governance votes? Because it's a permissionless network. And so it really... if any other protocol accepts SUSD, then I'm able to do something with it. So I guess I'm asking two questions. So the first question is, what does the work look like from like a integrations partnership perspective to accept SUSD as something, whether it be collateral or whatever, what does that look like on the back end as you work with potential partners? And And from a kind of allowable perspective, know, here can the define things you can do with SUSD. How do you draw the balance there? Yeah, so I think that the intention again is in being a lot more forward leaning with the collateralization ratio and allowing it to be 200 % instead of 500%. I think that kind of sets the direction at least that we have to be quite conservative because again, the underlying being SNX is a volatile crypto asset. And so we do need to be able We do need to be very cognizant that the price of that can change quite drastically. And so we need to be able to kind of dial that up, but also dial that down quite quickly if the need arises. And so I think that kind of sets the scene at least. And so the way we're thinking about it at the minute is twofold. it's conservative use of SUSD. And so it's things like I mentioned, Aave, Athena are depositing. any stable and ARVA depositing. Being a minter of Athena is something that we've discussed with the Athena team and we're in the process of being white listed as a minter there. So being able to capture the Athena basis trade yield that they're able to generate or doing things like going into Maker Vaults, so the die saving rate, capturing the die saving rate in that conservative bucket of things. on the other side, it's empowering products within our own ecosystem. And so for example, in the future of Synthetix, we will have a, in the near future, hopefully, we'll have a derivatives protocol with order books on Snacks chain, which is our own app chain on the OPC chain. And with that we'll need liquidity. Um, so, so much like, uh, much like others have conceptualized, you can either, you can either get market makers, hope they turn up organically. You can pay for market makers or you can be the market maker. And so one of the, one of the strategies will, will be to be the market maker and create a market making vault, which we can see with S USD liquidity. Um, S USD will be the primary asset of that exchange. So again, it's putting, it's putting our products back at the heart of our, sorry. assets back at the heart of our products, which we haven't done with V3 necessarily, where we've gone down the route of USDC is the collateral and USDC is the margin and even other forms of crypto assets are the margin. So CPE, CBBTC, but kind of losing that tie to S &X and SUSD. So that will, I mean, being on the BD effort, BD with ourselves is kind of first port of call. And then we believe that if we create a strong enough use case for SUSD via having a highly attractive exchange, highly attractive vaults that plug into that exchange that can capture or can be syncs for SUSD, you then in a much better position to do that BD effort and say, hey, this is an asset that's highly desired by... individuals that want to trade in a decentralized manner and therefore you can position yourselves as a, or you can position SUSD as a much more attractive asset for others to take as a form of collateral. Yeah. I'm interested in these two-sided markets because they're so hard to do. I met with George Beale from Lombard and we had a lengthy discussion around Lombard BTC or LBTC and what the work looks like that nobody sees. where he's meeting with other protocols to get LBTC integrated and creating a market for it and demand for it. And there's no problem there now, but at the beginning, he had to make those cold calls and actually reach out, do all the outreach and what those discussions look like. and I imagine to one degree, Synthetix has been around and so people know what... you know, SNX is, what SUSD is. But because there is this renaissance happening with Synthetix, you know, maybe kind of a re-exploration of, you know, what the relationship could look like and what the demand might look like. Like all of that's very interesting and I'm curious about that. Well, tell us more about this renaissance going on at Synthetix. And I guess what are some things you can tell us that that people might not know. What can I tell you that people might not know? I might get in trouble if I say too much, but... Or that people should know, but maybe they don't, you know, the Renaissance that's happening, you know, a lot of it is just behind the scenes. And I think it'd be helpful for people to understand that there's a lot of work going on to revitalize the project, to get SNX, to grow the demand for SUSD, all of that. Yeah. So I think it's, um, it's stepping back to first principles and recognizing that Synthetix was on a path that wasn't leading to success in 2024. As you started to see a lot of life come back to the market and there was chat at the DeFi Renaissance in late 2024. Synthetix was never really part of that conversation, never really caught a bid where others like Maker and Aave caught bids in the market and kind of reflecting on on what some of the reasons were or what some of the issues with perception for Synthetix were was that it was down this path that people just didn't find that attractive anymore. And it wasn't necessarily the decentralized derivatives path because you saw on the other side that hyperliquid were absolutely crushing it. And so for us, was kind of a, let's go back to what do users want? What do they expect when they come to a market like Synthetix? And we can't just rest on the laurels of being this DeFi OG that's hardened through two bear markets. We need to come out with a product that people actually want to turn up to and can attract new users, new customers, and a lot more activity than it had been recently. And so that's where we stepped back and went, okay, we need to fix at the core. We need to fix two things, our exchange and our staking. There was a loss of attraction in the SNX token itself. And so that led to the... the increasingly rapid unstaking of SNX within the ecosystem. So we needed to fix that. And then off the back of that, we need to kind of work on improving our products. And so what we effectively want to do at Synthetix is we want to become like the derivatives, almost like a decentralized derivatives house where we have the exchange, but on the exchange, have a lot of products that users can interact with without necessarily knowing they're using a derivatives exchange. And so the recognition was there are lot of new users that came to the ecosystem that weren't around in 2019, 2020, 2021 that were that more native user that wants to have Metamask and has a ledger and plugs in and is happy approving transactions and trading with leverage. But a lot of these meme coin traders, are They don't want to necessarily have the complexity of trading on derivatives. They just want simple products. And maybe meme coin traders is a bad example because they want something completely different. But a lot of retail users that just want simple products. And so how can we productize a lot of strategies that the more sophisticated traders do on derivatives and issue those as simple products? So we have launched to date leverage tokens. We're launching basis trade vaults. We're launching megavolts that will kind of allocate across different basis trades on our exchange or different strategies. If the basis trade just isn't effective. And so really kind of coming at it as a, from a, from a exchange perspective, what's the best experience we recognize now that we need order books, which Synthetix has historically not had. Uh, so that will be coming this year. Um, volts where users can just come and one click deposit into strategies that aren't necessarily. intuitive for them to deploy assets to without this product that then that are powered by the exchange and they're kind of at the core of the product side of things. And then as we've talked about a bit previously, SIP 420, which is improving the staking within Synthetix and really putting SNX back at the core of the whole ecosystem. And how can it capture value? How can it participate? How can it really be that that value accrual token within the ecosystem that actually has ties to the performance of the product. So you mentioned the reorientation to the exchange, so revitalizing the exchange and also the derivatives products. How are you positioning those two? to whom are you positioning them? And what's your message to these target audiences? You alluded to the fact that these target audiences are relatively new. They're no longer the 2017 OG, but really new, it's a new audience that may not be familiar with Synthetix's history. And so how are you reaching them and what are you saying to them? Yeah. So I think for us, it's a, we're, we're not quite at that stage yet. So I think we need the product first or need to be a lot more definitive in what that product looks like before we can go to market with that messaging. Uh, but I think the goal is going to be twofold. One, it's going to be, um, direct messaging. So we will be, we will be trying to say, Hey, this is your, this is your one-stop decentralized derivatives, super app, um, built on the OPE super chain. It's on a, it's on a permissionless. public blockchain that lots of others trust, lots of others use. It's hopefully by that stage going to be interoperable with all of the other OP superchain chains like base and ink, Kraken's chain and Uni chain and all the other ones that are popping up. But also I think the big focus is going to be on that BD side, which we briefly touched on with SUSD, but it's how can we get How can we position Synthetix in places that those new users or the new cohort of users is more likely to turn up to? so Infinex is one of those examples whereby their core customer is that new user, the next sign up to crypto. How do they create an easy on-ramping experience? But then how do they actually get into DeFi from that app or from that wallet? And so, so going out to companies like Infinex or protocols like Infinex and saying, okay, how do you actually plug into derivatives? How do you provide that user with the experience that they can get on chain, but in that very kind of safeguard and for them and trying to position ourselves where, the user actually comes as opposed to on chain where, we don't necessarily think the new users will come as natively as they did in 2019. I think the distribution model through the OP Superchain is, through Optimism is brilliant because they will do a lot of the co-marketing with you and I think you'll be able to reach distribution that way. And so I think that's brilliant. On the BD side, I think that's obviously, you definitely need to do that. That's like really kind of. hard one-on-one kind of integration discussions with partners. And I think the integration with Infinex is interesting, or Infinex as well as other super apps where these kind of these disparate services are being kind of verticalized into an app and where a user of Infinex may not even know that it's Synthetix running beneath them. And they don't care. Like they just want to get their swap done or be able to do a trade and then be done and then move on with their life. And I think based on a lot of conversations I'm having, I'm seeing a lot of kind of crypto native people moving towards that more and more, where some of them still want to see kind of the plumbing underneath and to make sure that things are being routed in the right way. But most of them kind of don't care. You know, when they have built enough kind of belief and trust in the thing that they're using, it's like, just get it done. I want to go play with my kid at the park. You know, it's, I don't know if it's crypto maturing, but it's refreshing that we're not so enamored by complexity anymore. Or there's a portion of us that are not enamored by complexity, but rather we'd rather have convenience. Mmm. And I think that's very refreshing to hear. I think integration, Synthetix being integrated into these super apps makes a ton of sense and I think is a great distribution model for, I think, a pretty large cohort that really just want to get the job done. And they don't kind of care how it's done. They just want it done. Yeah, I think you hit on something that I've come to realize as well is that crypto, the community almost became this sucker of accepting complexity and it needed to be complex to be safe and secure and you needed your ledger and you needed your MetaMask or your Rabi Wallet and you needed safes. And whilst I think some of that still rings true and certainly for those managing significant amounts of money. There is a whole cohort of users that just want one click, very simple, even abstract the protocol that's underpinning it. One of the integrators that we do have that's live and operating is Mass Money. They've been great at creating their app. You can trade spot crypto, can trade derivatives, and you can trade stocks. You can fiat on ramp, you can crypto on ramp. They're regulated across various jurisdictions. They're an app in the Apple App Store, and so mobile first. having that user experience where they can go and do the thing that they can do on like Robinhood, for example, but they can also trade crypto and they can trade spot and they can trade perps and they don't even need to know that their leverage that they're getting on derivatives markets is from Synthetix. They can just do it and they don't really care to be honest. They just care about that experience as you mentioned and being able to do it in five minutes on the go without having to carry their ledger everywhere with them and. And that experience, I think, will become more more prominent in crypto. And I think it's probably on us, the ecosystem, to make sure that it's a safe, secure experience for those users so that we don't make people go back to the days of needing Ledger to feel safe and secure. But I think we've got the technology and the tooling to be able to get very close now that we didn't necessarily have back then. Yeah. Something interesting happened on this pod. I had a guest reach out to me recently and said, hey, you recently interviewed so and so. I'd love an intro because we'd love to partner with them. And so I made the intro. Now they're talking. And so I wonder if you could maybe drop some names for me, if you're open to it or interested. I know Kane and the team, you guys have relationships everywhere and so you don't need any intro help. But in the case that you might, I mean, it might be interesting to, know, for other projects that you might be interested in working with, you know, to, guess to signal that, you know, you guys want to get SUSD everywhere and want to partner. Anyway, I'm just putting that out there in case you wanted to drop any names. Yeah, no, appreciate that. No one, no one specifically at this time, but I mean, anyone that's looking to kind of provide a derivatives experience or leverage experience for their customer group that doesn't necessarily want to build it themselves. We do have the integration model. We have worked with partners, we have worked with multiple integrators. so it is a, an integrator ourselves now, we're very close to having like very, very simple onboarding, very quick onboarding. So we are happy to provide that experience if there is anyone out there. Is it permissionless or is it you still have to do some quite a bit of work on the integration side? Nice. I mean, historically it has been quite complex to integrate. Um, but I think one of the, one of the nice things we heard recently was actually mass money. was, um, I was speaking to, one of our engineers and I said, have you heard of mass money? Apparently they've integrated our perps into their mobile app. And he was like, not, they've never talked to me. There's no way they've done it because the kind of issues that he's dealt with other integrators having. He's like, no one could do this by themselves, but they were able to. And so I think we are at that stage where people can, if they really want, come along, do it themselves. We do have a little cheat path if they do come to us and are able to light them up a lot quicker, but it is fully permissionless. I love that. That's one of the key things. I think important things I love about Web3 and crypto is the permissionless aspect. I'm reminded of a story when I led growth at another layer one and all of sudden we saw like just tons and tons of transactions and all of a sudden our TVL went really high on our bridge and we're like, what is happening? What's going on? And it turns out there was a really famous game that deployed on on the layer one that I was led growth at and people were moving their assets from other chains onto our bridge so they could participate in this game and it was really crazy for a while. It was really interesting. It turns out I knew the team and because of that relationship, because I kind of knew them, they decided, hey, let's check out this layer one because they're cheap and fast, et cetera. But I really didn't have anything to do with them deploying on the chain. It just turns out I kind of knew them. And yeah, it was really wild. But I love that aspect because it's like, was surprised, all of us were surprised. And then led to the next six months of just kind of hair on fire, kind of, no, our PCs are down. Which is a great problem to have. It is, it is. Yeah. That's something that we're, we're increasingly going to have to deal with. Not hopefully not RPC is going down, but, but the, something I touched on before is we are launching snacks chain, which will be an app chain within the optimism ecosystem. Um, and that will be the home of Synthetix. And so I think moving forward, that's where we will have, uh, that's where we'll launch our new perps experience. That's where we'll launch order books. That's where most of our vault activity will be. That's where all of SNX staking will be. And so really, really leaning into that kind of, being the being again, kind of being in control of what we can and, creating the experience that we want. And I think working with companies like, um, like conduit and flashbots where. We're really designing an app chain that's perp-specific or DeFi-specific. And so again, it's all about trying to control that customer experience and what we can, that we're hoping to do by launching our own chain. Yeah, you mentioned Conduit, which is a roll-up as a service provider. Are you also working with other RAS providers like Gelato and others to... I mean, it's a great method of distribution for sure. We work with Gelato for other aspects of our products, not the kind of roll-up as a service. I think we're very happy with Conjured at the minute and have a good relationship with those guys. So that's where we are today. That's cool. Well, Ben, what else could you tell us about the Synthetix renaissance maybe that you haven't shared with us yet? Yeah, I mean, I think I've shared a lot of it. I think the kind of core of it is that we're really refocusing what Synthetix is and trying to pivot from a path that we recognize in hindsight was not the right path. And I think through some of the acquisitions we did last year, being Quenta and TLX, that kind of initiated this direction to being the product focus or product photos protocol. tongue twister, product focused protocol that we are today. And I think really owning that experience is going to be the most powerful thing for Synthetix over next 12 months, whereby we're not dependent on other teams, we're not dependent on other strategies, we're not dependent on others' roadmaps. We are the roadmap, we are the drivers of strategy, we are the drivers of prioritization. We have the resources internally to build what we want and provide the experience to end users that we want. And I think that that will, that will hopefully create a lot better product, but also a lot less confusion. Uh, where, whereas you mentioned before, we were kind of one hop away from the user. so if the user was coming and even if they knew what Synthetix was that most of their interactions were through Quenta or through TLX or through Taurus or through other products where, where it just kind of created product confusion. Um, and in, such an attention economy that that we know crypto is, it's hard to be this passive participant and get any cut through. And so really what we're hoping to do and drive is to be this like derivatives product super house that has everything that we need or every interaction that a user needs in order to get comfortable with being able to trade products, be it your retail user who can enter simple vaults all the way through to your very sophisticated market maker. that wants to conduct complex strategies across various markets in deep order books. Yeah, you mentioned attention and so much of crypto recently, maybe it always has, but this competition for attention and mindshare becomes such a, it is a difficult game to play. And I'm curious what your thoughts are on driving mindshare and getting attention. And I know you're not at that place yet, but as you're kind of thinking forward, you know, thinking ahead. What are some of your ideas to do that in a highly competitive kind of DeFi space? Yeah, I think attention comes in various forms. And I think that what we saw in DeFi Summer was attention was in the form of high APY. Like your 1000 % APYs, your 10,000 % APYs, what attracted users to come try, explore, and get that attention. I think what we've seen recently is it's not high percentage APYs, but it's high percentage returns in small timeframes that really captured attention for the meme coin market. And whilst in just like they did in DeFi, a lot of those 10,000 % APYs unwind very quickly. What we've seen in the meme coins is a lot of those high returns unwind very quickly. And what was kind of left was a barren land of people who got wrecked. I think for us, like one of the things that we're looking to do with the new staking mechanism and some of the announcements that we'll hopefully have over the coming weeks is to the evolution of the 420 pool or the next phases of the 420 pool. Just new matters that people can hopefully lean into in the ecosystem. So how can you provide new offerings, something differentiated? At the minute, a lot of DeFi is stablecoin yield. And so you've seen Athena grow to $6 billion in stablecoin supply just by offering a basis trade. I probably do them a disservice in saying that, but at their core, they're a basis trade vault that captures the the funding rate on shorts and long spot. so kind of counter to that is like, okay, if that's the current meta that's getting a lot of attention, a lot of traction, it's resulting in growth in the maker ecosystem, in the Aave ecosystem, which I believe is all time high, TVLs in Athena, which is growing vertically. It's what new medic and Synthetix provide and how can we start really Again, I don't want to get in too much trouble for saying things, but I think how can we really provide a differentiated experience that just captures attention as an interesting new novel concept within DeFi or within the broader crypto ecosystem? And so I think we're coming up with some clever things that hopefully will be part of our future announcements in the coming months. Well, I think that's enough. I think you saying that, hey, I don't want to get in trouble by saying too much, I think is enough because I think that gets people that are into DeFi and looking for new novel ways to deploy their capital, I think, quite excited. So thanks for saying the thing you didn't want to say. Hopefully it'll be clear in the coming weeks. Hopefully it'll be clear some of the things I'm saying. Awesome, awesome. Well, we're excited to hear what you guys will about to say. What you will announce in the next couple of weeks. And I'm rooting for you guys in Synthetix. Synthetix, think, was the precursor and inspirator of so many protocols. I want to see you guys win. I'm excited for you. do we. We'll be doing everything we can to get there. Awesome. Well, Ben, thank you so much. Any final words before we get off? Uh, no, mean, no, nothing too pertinent. think for us, like the cadence of updates will hopefully increase in the coming months as we do. We did go through that. Um, I'd say awkward transitionary period last year. And I say awkward just cause any changes, um, can be a bit of like you, you kind of water your way through it and get to the end, hopefully. But I think we're at this stage now where we've got the pieces we need. We've got the direction we need. For me, least internally, the vision for Synthetix over the coming year hasn't been clearer than it is today. And I think that where we want to go is we'll be driving towards very hard. again, hopefully people paying attention will see that cadence of update increase. And we'll see the cadence of product releases increase as well. And for us, we're very excited internally. We hope that We hope that the community is equally as excited as we start to kind of push that communication piece into the ecosystem. But we'll see. I'd say pay attention. Cheers. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Peter. Thank you.