Oleg Fomenko, co-founder of Sweat and Sweat Wallet, welcome. Thank you very much for having me here, Pete. You've built a pretty amazing company that's product led. I want to do a really quick intro just to kind of set the stage for the audience. So Oleg is the CEO of Sweat Economy. It's a web two to web three movement platform with over 140 million users and one of the most downloaded health apps globally, which is a really, really amazing feat that you and the team have accomplished. The 140 million is amazing. It's actually 150 million as of this morning. um But the fact that you have gotten real human users using crypto is, I think, a pretty amazing feat. um But let's start with the most important question. What is your best in terms of number of steps ah per day? Because maybe we can use that as a... um uh as a guide for the rest of the call. think my personal best would probably be close to about 70,000 steps. But I can't really claim that I do it every day. This week, I hit 30,000 steps on Monday. But my average step count would be somewhere in the region between 10,000 and 15,000 if we're looking at averages. That's great. Now, were you always very active or did ah the app help you kind of change your behavior? Because you talk quite a bit about human behavior and how to change it. um How has that worked for you? I've probably like most people, I've gone through ups and downs, but you know, if I look at my life, then I am pretty much always quite active, but I've gone through crazy kind of uh active phases of life. You know, I used to climb some of the highest mountains in the world and spending a lot of time on expeditions and glaciers and walking and skis. you know, snow shoes, hiking. And, uh, you know, that's why I was, uh, kind of when I was looking at your history, I noticed back country where I've spent countless thousands of dollars on some of the best kit that is the lightest and best performance. So, and then I had periods of time, uh, which is actually what precluded the creation of originally sweat coin in 2014, uh, where for about two to three years, had young children, I had my previous business that unfortunately perished in very unfortunate kind of circumstances. And I went for a run to clear my head and try to figure out what my plan was. And I realized that I couldn't really do 5k at a very decent pace. And that was a very interesting trigger when I kind of went, hang on a second, yeah, I can't do 5k without slowing down. know, kind of something changed. And I started thinking, if I lost that level of fitness, then, you know, kind of, you know, kind of how do others deal with it? How does it work for them? And I started having conversations and, you know, kind of, uh, found actually people that were engaging in trade. And that's how I found our co-founders. And, you know, kind of, we realized that the reason that nobody is active as they want to be, you know, regardless, if you're training for marathon. you want to train more. Or if you are depressed and employed sitting in front of TV with a bottle of beer at 11 o'clock in the morning, you're supposed to... active. So it's universal desire to kind of move more. Why can't we? Why don't we? And when we started digging into that question, we realized that the reason why we're not as active as we want to be is because nature didn't build us to be active. Nature built us to survive. Nature didn't build us to squander calories, nature built us to preserve calories. And that means sitting around the fire and preserving those calories until either mammals shows up so that we get some food or if Sabertooth tiger shows up and is about to make food out of us, then we run, otherwise we sit. And this programming, this setup continues to really dominate in our heads. And it's full of present bias. even have a working party. So we're focusing right here, right now, and long term benefits of using the African States and giving them wealth. I'm not necessarily changing how they hate it. And it's very hard to... It's really, really difficult to, you know, kind of find motivation, blah, blah, blah, that people use as an excuse. But the reality is if you want to be active and you want to do it every day, then you're not. finding motivation or finding money or finding time, you are fighting nature and the programming that you have in your head. Thankfully, nature also points us towards solution, which is instant gratification. And that's how the original idea of sweat coin, which later evolved into sweat and sweat wallet came about. We kind of went, instant gratification for physical activity, what could it be? The easiest to explain is financial reward. But who became the real SIA. So we had to our own currency. That's how sweat coin was born. uh as name would suggest in 2014, we were already thinking about blockchain, but there was only Bitcoin that existed then. We spoke to Vitalik in 2015 and we launched centralized with idea that we're going to move onto blockchain as soon as fast and robust enough blockchain comes along. Little did we know that it would take until 2021 for blockchain technology to catch up with our growth trajectory and our engagement trajectory. And in 2022, we made a decision to launch on Nier. And now we have Sweatcoin, which is our step tracker and basically health and fitness application. And now I'm leading our Web3 trust, which is Sweat. token real crypto issued on blockchain and sweat wallet which is a non custodial wallet that allows you to manage your gains from being physically active and also manage any other crypto that you know that exists. Well, I'm glad you took us through that journey because that was one of the questions is like how did you get from Where you were in the early days to kind of 150 million users today? But there's uh some main topics I want to cover today, and we can address each one as you see fit. um Based on some of the research I've done, you're looking to AI-powered personal agents, and I would definitely want to talk about that um and how that helps the human. And then let's talk about the movement economy, moving from kind of move to earn to now the movement economy, and how that drives real-world impact. And uh back to AI agents and how I believe you've mentioned in some tweets how AI agents with chain abstraction will be the key to unlocking the next X number of users. um But let's begin with the reach that you guys, that Sweat has made. 150 million users in Web2 and Web3 is a staggering number. How did you get to that point? there's like, what secret sauce did you discover or deploy that arrived at that number? Because I mean, in Web3, we're talking maybe 5,000 to 10,000 active developers. And then there's not a lot of users of the applications on blockchain. But 150 million is incredible. So tell us about that. Like, what was the journey to get to that number? Very deep and quite a multifaceted question. But if I had to simplify an answer, it would be focusing on a product and value that product gives to you and to somebody else that you might want to invite. So quite often, know, of projects are talking about product-based virality. But that is quite complicated. And then they go down the path of paid acquisition and social and advertising and this and that. And that is quite a difficult place to escape from, actually, because then you're becoming dependent on your ads to supply your new users. And it's very difficult to find time to actually focus on the product. What we've discovered is that Our proposition, which is we pay you to walk, is so simple, so short to communicate, and is almost staggering. The oh way we've gained this number of users is a person just goes like, check out these guys. They pay you to walk. What? Really? What's the catch? How does it work? It's impossible. And then people go and install sweet coin and they realize that actually we don't sell data. And the reason why it works and the reason why so many users are using us and why sweet coin our web to business has been profitable for years is because everyone wants to attract attention of physically active people. If your health, fitness, sports, fashion, vanity, makeup, dog accessories, brand. then the ideal customer are the people that are actually paying attention to the physical activity to their body, because that starts a journey of thinking, okay, what do I eat? You know, how do I spend my time? And people are starting to think not just about their body, but their minds and their spirit. And what we realized is that the most important thing is to create a product that you instantly get value from and understand the value of. And if I go and I say, Pete, you should install this app. I don't feel like I'm selling you for money. I'm actually giving you something that you will find valuable because then my social capital and my quality of recommendations in your mind are also going up. So people were recommending it left, right, and center. There are also very interesting kind of specific cross-generational viral loops that we've discovered, especially in the US. When we launched in the US, what we realized was happening that some cool kid was installing Sweatcoin, coming to school and at the lunch break was raving and talking about it. Then other kids installed Sweatcoin, they came home and then there would be, you know, roughly the following conversation. Mom, you're fat, you always wanted to be more physically active. What about installing this app that I've just learned about? Don't worry about spending sweat coins. Just send them to me. I'll figure out how to do it. Mom installed it and she's got another topic of conversation with the teenager and all of a sudden their son or daughter are interested in their step count and all of a sudden they are becoming more physically active. Then this mom would talk to other moms and they would pick it up and we would just go like wildfire from school to school, from city to city. So, you know, if you are living in tech narrative that's really really effective, you've got to pay, you've got to pay children, you've got to buy kids, you've got to buy personal trainers, or you need equipment, bicycle, or whatever, with systems and then you say, it's valuable. It's valuable not just to you and your family, but it's valuable to so many parties, brands, insurers, employers, ultimately governments, because if you're physically active, You're going to be economically active for longer. So it is good business to make the world physically active. And rather than you paying for it, you can actually get rewards and you can get paid for it. And this whole viral loop and the value that we deliver through the product is the primary engine of our growth. And then of course, people like yourselves started getting interested and all of a sudden we had influences and people that were talking about healthy lifestyle or people that were talking about Web3, started picking it up and started talking about it. So that added fuel to fire. But in short, think about the value that your product delivers to the users and make it very easy for them to understand it and to talk about you with others. And all of a sudden, you can find yourself in the same position that you'll have hundreds of millions of users. Yeah, I'm glad you mentioned the how the how you deployed the app because I I did some in a prior life I did some work in in app development and also app marketing and there's a it's very interesting how you market an application in the app store And I remember at one time and I don't know if this is true anymore, but there's a there's a school district in the United States. don't want to name which one, but there's a school district that starts school earlier than everyone, every other school district in America. And almost everyone deploys their application within that geo-fenced area. Hoping that all of the cool kids that start school first will start, use the, will know about the app, bring awareness to the app, use the app. And virality starts from that school district and it's really amazing how it works. um It's very interesting. not know about this, but if we were aware of it, then we probably would have done something like that. Yeah, it's really amazing. um And all the testing and I can name many apps that have done the same kind of approach. They geofence the launch just to that school district zip code. And it goes viral from there and it's really crazy. And then the virality is a function of when the other school districts start. And so if that school starts, let's say in September 1st and then the next one starts September 8th, you can see on a map the downloads, like it goes away from that zip code. It's really wild. um Let's talk about the product. Yeah, yeah. Let's, I mean, it's really amazing. You guys have found a kind of a flywheel for growth and a viral loop, as you call it. um Tell us about how the product has evolved from. You alluded to this in the beginning, from sweat coin to sweat economy. And then now you're talking about how potentially AI agents could be deployed and help the human become healthier. And what is the role of AI agents in the sweat economy? Or first of all, what is the sweat economy? And then let's talk about AI agents in that, and what is their role? Yeah. So as I mentioned, we started very, very early for any Web3 company. started in 2014 with the business called Sweatcoin because we thought it would be crypto straight from get go. couldn't, know, Bitcoin is too slow to cumbersome, too expensive to build on. Ethereum, it was too early for them. And then we just started, you know, we launched centralized. And we just started growing and growing and growing. And by the time Ethereum launched and we realized that they only had 15 transactions per second, we actually needed orders of magnitude more. So we realized that we wouldn't be able to build on Ethereum or pretty much any other blockchain that exists at that point, you know, for that matter. And we, every year, were spending time looking at blockchain tech that was coming online and testing and uh assessing if it was, you know, kind of fit enough for us to jump. And it only happened in 2021 when Solana, Avalanche, I guess, a range of faster EVM chains as well as NIR came online that we kind of went, ah, you know, it seems to be here. And we looked at 14 different chains and ultimately we chose NIR. to move on to, but by that moment, we already had 120 million users in SWEAT coin, and it was too late to say from one day to another, all of a sudden everything will change because if it's a centralized currency, the user experience is slightly different. The tokenomics were different from SWEAT, and we realized that we needed to launch another token. And the way it worked was our users with SWEAT coins they were just opting in to effectively swap at the time of T3 token generation event, swap their SWET coins for SWET. And, you know, we had tens of millions that are pre-registered and were ready to come in. But we are not focusing on crypto natives. We, for 90 % of our users, SWET is the first crypto asset that they own. And this whole migration from Web2 to Web3 is not as simple for them as quite a lot of people think. You know, there are, when we were doing our research for SWET and SWET wallet launch, we realized that there are three major barriers for Web3 adoption. First of all, everyone is curious and interested in Web3. But what stops them from joining are three things. One. is appealing products because quite often, Web3 products are going to be about trading and derivatives and lending and yield farming. And a lot of people are not doing it in their life. They don't understand how these things work. And all of sudden, go into Web3 to do something that they're terribly unfamiliar with is just a step too far. It's not appealing. The second is user experience. Some users have tried to install Metamask or some other wallet and they kind of seen this, oh, you've got to save this 24 words somewhere, but if you lose them, then you lose all of your assets. And they were just telling us these horror stories that kind of just too complicated. I don't want to go through this. I want to go in and see what's in it for me. And then maybe I will go through all of this, kind of don't kind of puzzle me with this stuff upfront. And the third barrier that they were mentioning is even if they mastered these 24 words and they saved them and, you know, kind of they were confident enough, then the first step for them would be pull out credit card and buy hundreds of dollars worth of crypto as a minimum, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to even start learning and taking first steps. m everything they read in mass media is, you know, kind of Ronin Bridge drain 600 million, know, Warren Hall Bridge drain 300 million. They kind of go like, it's probably going to be my money. You know, they don't feel like they are able to risk this. They don't feel confident and equipped to play this game. So first appealing product, second, make it really, really slick and good user experience. Third, don't put you you have to pay as the first step in order to start educating yourself. With this in mind, we basically developed Sweat and Sweat Wallet. And our proposition remained the same. We pay you to walk. Before it was centralized currency. Right now, we track your movement. We validate it or verify it in a very draconian fashion. So that if you put your phone on the dog or you put it in a dishwasher or you you you can imagine, when you start paying somebody to be physically active, that's... creates a lot of temptation and we've seen it absolutely all. We have the whole fraud team whose task is to track all the movement data that arrives and to ensure that no sweat coin or sweat are issued to people that don't sweat. And this is one of the reasons why we're successful because people trust us because if you shake your phone and you know that it will count steps. If we were to pay you for shaking the phone, just after that moment, you already given up because, you know, if I shake the phone, then everybody else is shaking the phone. How can this be valuable? No, it can't be. So when we went in, we said, OK, we pay you to walk. Attractive proposition. Second, we removed all the UX barriers and, you know, to sign up to our products is extremely easy. And third, We're not asking you to pull your credit card out. You've got like the apps are free. You take steps, you start earning cents and then dollars. You learn how to send and receive. You learn how to stake. You understand how web three works. And all of a sudden you gain enough confidence to call yourself crypto native. And all of a sudden pull your card out and start buying tokens, trading tokens, breeding tokens. Our average user buys the crypto two weeks after they join. And in that period, they gain, you know, kind of step by step that confidence and understanding what Web3 is. And that's the reason why we are the best sort of Web2 to Web3 on ramp, because you can gradually take those steps and, you know, no need to part with money. No need to learn what secret phrase or, you know, seed phrase is right away. No need to learn completely unfamiliar product that probably is not really interesting for you in your life. And that brings me to AI. Right? So despite all of this and all, you know, simplifying all of those steps, we did realize that people have some questions when they come in, they want to learn additional stuff. And then the old world, the best way to do it is through FAQs and you know, kind of teaching people, but you know what we realized when we launched our first MVP of AI, people would just launch straight away and they would ask in their own words, questions that were bothering them. And with nearly a million questions asked, we realized actually, you know what the best way to handle this is to introduce an AI assistant very early and allow people to ask these questions straight away without having to funnel them. and send them to FAQs and search through those and find those that sound like the question they have. Just ask a question in your own words and you're going to get an answer right away. And we now seeing that this AI system test is yielding incredible results. More people are staying for longer. Retention in the app is going up. Engagement with every single feature is going up. And you know, there is also a possibility to create an experience that is very, difficult without AI. For example, one of the questions that people ask very often is, okay, I'm here now, what would be the best thing that I can do next? And of course, it's very different from you to me. You know, if I have a lot of balance and history, then advice for me would be very different from you. And to build that algorithm without AI is extremely difficult. But right now, you know, kind of because AI assistant sees your on-chain activity, does have some context about you and your device. If you ask what's the next best step, it will always find the next best step that will make you earn more and will make you more physically active. And you can ask this question multiple times in a row and the answer is going to be always different. You know, it allows us to really give you a lot more value faster. explain things faster and to build confidence for our users a lot faster than ever before. It sounds like the initial research that you did in learning about the friction that that in the onboarding process and the friction that is there for web two to web three, you know, led to this roadmap of how do we make things easier for the user and it helps you to take a very product first approach to onboarding toward to sweat. And then now the extension of that is now AI agents are helping the user. even more by identifying exactly like what across all users, like what are some of the additional issues that they're having? How can we help them along the path? And you really, sounds like it's giving them a roadmap as to where am I right now? And what do I do next? And that's pretty powerful. um And it takes them along that uh adoption curve and also learning curve. know, people don't think about the learning curve as much. But if you think about when you try something new, there's a lot of fear. A lot of people have, they're scared to try something new, they're insecure about themselves. But if you give them the confidence and you help them along, then they have the courage to figure it out. And it sounds like that's one of the key product features that you guys have unlocked for users. And it's not only features, it's also language and vocabulary. uh For example, in that same research when we were researching staking, for non-cryptonative staking, first association is count Dracula's stakes through the heart. That's really not a fintech association, But everyone understands that you can grow your capital. And that's why, for example, our staking product is called GrowJars. You put your sweat into GrowJar, And it grows. just simple vocabulary that is explaining concepts to people builds that confidence, gives them that extra, I guess, reason to use us as the entry point into web 3. Because again, simple language, simple UX. I love that. part with money as a first step. And now it brings me also to chain abstraction or rather seamless multi-chain experience, because we've seen it time and time again that users would come in and would learn ropes and would buy their tokens. And then they would kind of go, hmm, you know what? I want to go and to pancake swap that is on BSC, right? And without supporting BSC natively in our wallet, We cannot really just give a very, very easy experience for our users. And what we would notice is that they would then go and go through this horrible experience of creating an account on another chain, then funding account on another chain, installing another wallet, then figuring out how to bridge assets from one chain to another, all of that in order to engage with PancakeSwap. What we realized is that we need to go multi-chain because these users coming in, we build trust with them. They are confident that, you know, kind of we are not screwing with them and then we're giving them recommendation of a horrible project. And by adding all of this multi-chain experience and removing all of this complexity of great incomes, funding accounts, bridging assets, all of that can be actually hidden under the hood. is the next step. So that you want to go and swap on PyCakeSwap? Absolutely. You want to go to pump.fun on Solana? Absolutely. First of all, it gives our users an opportunity to not learn ropes and go through very, very complicated experience that I am sure, you you wouldn't say that it's a pleasant thing. And I am 100 % confident is not going to be around three years down the line. This is an early adopter stuff. In the future, you wouldn't even think about, know, kind of, I need to create an account on that chain. You just go to the chain and it will automatically create it for you. Yes, there might be some fees, but you would not bother with all of these different steps that you have to go through right now. So by combining AI assistant, And adding chain abstraction, can deal with things or with another question that we've seen asked quite often, which is, uh so what's new? What's exciting in SweatWallet? And we can give you not just the next best action, but we can tell you, OK, this has been added, this has been added. And by adding all of these different chains, we're going to create an environment or a product that our users are not going to need to abandon SweatWallet if they go to Solana. or if they go to BC, but they will be able to do whatever they want on those chains straight from the app, SpotWallet, that they're already familiar with and they trust that is, know, well-ready built trust and appreciation and the relationship with them. So if they don't have to go, they won't go, which means that we're going to have more users, we're going to have better retention, and we're going to have better liquidity that you know, kind of is always very, very good for any business. and I this is why I love product-led companies or product-led crypto projects and there's very few of them your the user research that you did in identifying language as a key barrier to activity or a key barrier to doing something new is really subtle but super important and and I agree I mean staking as a word is most people are not familiar with it. And so just changing the language to make it something more down to earth and relatable is, you know, grow jars. That's, that's, I get it. I mean, you don't have to explain it to me. That's amazing. And I want to definitely go into the user research more because I think that's one of the key practical things I think more and more crypto projects can learn to do is actually better understand who their users are. I want to go back a little bit, and we don't have to spend a lot of time on this, but you said something, you evaluated 14 chains, and I'm curious about the process by which you evaluated this change and how you arrived at Nier as the home for SWED. How did you do that? It's a very stupid question. Not many people uh asked it, but it was a nightmare because talking to 14 different chains means that you hear 14 different stories and you're told that, you know, this matters the most, this matters the most, this matter the most. And when I tried to bring all of those narratives and stories together, I really could not. develop any framework that allowed me to compare these chains. And it was more of a faith or liking certain individual that would steer that decision. And I remember vividly that at some point, going through a few more chains that we had a conversation that I've decided, I'm just going to abandon being story or narrative led. And I'm just going to take a step back and think, what? do we need from our blockchain partner? And what we realized is that our mission is to make the world physically active, which means that we need a partner that really is thinking scale and consumer. Surprisingly, that actually weeded out quite a lot of partners that would from get go start talking, we're building an infrastructure for real world assets used by banks and financial institutions. going to go like, yeah, these guys are effectively building B2B. We're B2C. So, know, kind of strategically, we're not on the same path. The other thing was that we needed technologically throughput and really low transaction values because again, we are not working for crypto natives that have significant balances and that without a blank would pay $9 or whatever, sometimes even $100 on Ethereum for a trade, our users would have balances of $5 to $10. So transaction price or the cost of operating on blockchain mattered a lot. And throughput, because if you have number of users that we have, when we were launching, we needed 1,500 transactions per second steady. all the things change to be able to support that. Thankfully, since then, we've done a lot of optimizations and pulled a lot of systems out. or rather transfers, into transactions. So right now, we're probably maxing out at about 300, but it takes time to optimize and smooth out things. So first strategy. Second is technology that allows you high throughput, low cost. And also very importantly, because we've already been working on this business for a while, we know that we continue to grow, which means that we need to make sure that whoever we're working with doesn't have a hard cap on that throughput. And what we realized in our testing is that every single EVM has a hard stop at about 525 transactions per second. And after that, transaction costs go through the roof and basically the whole chain and everyone building on that chain are affected. So all of a sudden you're becoming possibly fortunate. If you were to build an idea, it is conceivable that at some point you think, well, shh. need to tamper down our growth because we don't want to kill everybody on this chain and piece of our users by pushing fees through the roof. being sharded architecturally is the kind of is the best and the most elegant and very importantly proven over the years architecture that we know works because if you need more throughput you add shards done. You know there are a lot of other hypotheses on how throughput can be increased but none of them have been tested year after year after year in a lot of different technologies like sharding. So and last but not least was also chemistry with the the founding team. Because no matter what, it is a big partnership. When you are building a chain, you're not making decisions for three months, and then you're saying, you know what, I'm just gonna go somewhere else. Well, least in our groups, it certainly isn't because you're bringing millions of people in a chain, you cannot really take the contract and lower it on another chain without... significant investment of time and significant disruption for users that you certainly don't want to bring. So. We spend, I've spent a lot of time talking to founding teams and various different team members to understand, do we have a chemistry? Do we have a common understanding? Do I feel that we can be having a difficult conversation that invariably you end up having at some point with your partners and near team was pretty incredible. mean, Ilya and Alex are builders and sort of that puts us on the same wavelength. So we are less about. stealing and telling stories and keeping in the back of our mind that, ah, we're not going to deliver that. We're just saying this for the sake of saying and pumping the token. Now these guys are really about building and releasing products that are getting constantly better. The second thing, throughput and cost is certainly there. And strategically, they are very much an end user focused rather than uh enterprise focused. So. you know, we made decisions to go with them and I'm happy with this decision. And even now, I cannot see who else potentially would be able to carry us if it wasn't near. You know, I've had this conversation with many app developers, not to the scale that Sweat has. um I mean, Sweat has lots of lots of users, right? And so the risk that you are taking is tremendous. Finding a new home to migrate to is a big, big question because you are responsible to all of these users and to their experience. And so you're taking a tremendous risk. And the fact that you took your time to meet the founders, interview, and do the research required, then leading you to understand that chemistry is really important. The infrastructure is really, really important. And the focus of the founders on the user experience and not just the infrastructure, both are related. But if they're user experience first, it almost forces them to think about the infrastructure, I think is really key. And I've had this conversation with many app developers who have had that same question, which chain should they build? Or if they're already built, build their app on a chain, but they're not happy, then they're thinking about migrating it to another chain. And one of the common things that I've heard app developers say is, you know, we've built on this chain, but we feel like we're on our own. And we don't get support of the community or the founders. And we actually need more handholding is what they say. Now that's really unusual to hear from developers who, at least in crypto, who are very, have a lot of machismo, right? But the fact is, you you've got developers of all sorts of skill levels and most of them, especially in blockchain, they're going to need some help at some point. And so to be in a supportive environment is really, really important. And that's one of the key value propositions of these other chains outside of Ethereum, really. Because Ethereum, you're kind of on your own. But on these other chains, there's more support. I'm seeing that it's actually inviting more applications to build on them. And I'm happy that you found a home at Near and that you that uh Ilya and Alex are supportive. And they certainly won big by uh winning the sweat business is really a huge win for them. Yeah, we certainly bring quite a lot of activity. think that one area that we didn't touch on uh is platform. know, kind of in my experience, a lot of Web3 businesses shy away from mobile and develop for desktop or laptop, but basically web. And if we are as an industry really serious uh about next billion people, we need to change that because you know, kind everyone's got a mobile device in their pocket. Very few people have laptops or desktop. And the amount of time that they spent in front of that laptop or desktop is fraction of the time that they have available for the mobile. And that's the reason why we are very, very squarely focusing on the mobile, because that gives us an opportunity to really bring that next billion people. into the Web3 world. And we're doing that every day. We get 20,000 people coming into SweatWallet on a daily basis, give or take. And that really drives engagement, education, and adoption. And we have a lot of partnerships that projects come to us and they say, we want users. And we have an opportunity to explain their project. position their project as valuable to our users and give them an opportunity, our users, to explore that project and if they decide, engage. And that's also where all of this chain abstraction and adding support for the chain, chains comes in because we were very much limited by the near ecosystem. Now, if you're starting to support every EVM and Solana and Tom, then all of a sudden you can partner with anyone and everyone and make that experience seamless. Because the way we build multi-chain support is very different from how other multi-chain wallets are doing it. If you want to engage, for example, with a DAB on a chain that you don't have an account on, we will create that account for you on the fly. You wouldn't have to worry about saving the key. The key is going to be managed through the MPC server network. And you will manage that account on that chain using your near key. don't even have to, it doesn't create any complexity. So when you want to do transaction on the chain, you sign it with your near key smart contract administering that chain. checks the validity of the signature, assembles the private key through MPC, sign the transaction, pushes it through RPC onto that chain. So end user ability to go to any chain is really, you know, kind of the complexity is zero. All of this rigmarole of creating account, finding account, getting another wallet, bridging assets is completely removed. And all of a sudden we are starting to create the world for our users that is not chain centric, but actually asset centric. You don't even need to think, okay, I have this asset. Even if it's scattered across multiple chains, you don't need to worry about it. The only time when the location of the asset matters is if you do a transaction, because for example, if asset goes from Ethereum, then then you might be able to hire them. asset goes through near. But there is nothing that stops us from being able to show you the aggregate view of anything and everything that you have on any chain without creating any complexity for you. Like in Metamask, you need to go and you need to choose chain and then you see assets on it. Why? You know, it doesn't make sense. The visibility is there. Start with portfolio. Show me my assets. don't bring up all the kind of technological complexity that frankly for the end user is largely irrelevant. When they want to go to pump.fun, very frequently they don't know that it's on Solana. And why should they? When you download an application from App Store, you don't check if it's built on Google Cloud or on Amazon Web Services or on Azure. It doesn't matter. As long as the application is working and functional. and removing complexity, removing steps, removing decisions that people need to take. For example, when we were building in Dex, typically you have to think about slippage, right? I mean, I'm sure that you're familiar with it. You know what? When we expose slippage to our users, we realize that they don't understand what the hell that is. They go and research and then they come back after some time and they need to make a decision. What's good? Is 0.5 % good? Is 1 % good? Is 2 % good? And what we realized is that that decision alone was hosting us huge amount of transactions. You know what we've done? We just completely removed slippage from consideration and this by default sets to a maximum and transactions have started pouring in. So don't... push complexity where you potentially can hide it in the settings and the person is automatic where they really want to play with that variable okay, give them an opportunity but don't do it and don't ask all these questions to people that you know, don't care, don't know and largely wouldn't even know how to make a decision about the appropriate level of slippage. So user experience and product is really putting yourself into end user shoes and giving them something that solves the problem without creating any unnecessary complexity in their life. That makes sense. And I'm seeing more more projects, you know, they're encapsulating the complexity away from the user. The user just doesn't need to know about it, see it. They just, they have a job that needs to get done. And so they focus on the job. However it gets done, they don't even care about. And I think that's really, really healthy. And it's a sign of a maturing industry that we're now listening to users. And I'm also seeing more more founders who love buzzwords and who love complexity. there now have some level of humility that maybe it's the users that count. I want to talk about a branding question because Sweat Wallet seems to be, there's a lot of focus on Sweat Wallet and then the user experience in the Sweat Wallet and it's asset focused versus chain focused. uh And it's a general purpose wallet. Like anyone can use Sweat Wallet for any asset, not just Sweatcoin or Sweat. How do you think about branding? Because if it feels like Sweat Wallet could compete with a Phantom or any of these other wallets that have a lot of traction. But calling it Sweat Wallet, I wonder if people immediately think it's only for Sweat versus any other asset. How do you think about branding? when it comes to that. Very good question. uh Look, even though sweat wallet can be used for other assets on other chains, our mission still remains to make the world physically active, which means that we are appealing and we're trying to appeal not to crypto natives, but to a lot wider audience. And this branding works extremely well for them. Hmm. we call it one, one, one, one wallet to manage all chains and on assets, one key to manage all of that. So, you know, kind of there is no complexity, no issues. And very importantly, you also use one token sweats to pay for any action on any chain. So we're making sweat into a universal gas token because as soon as people start going multi-chain, one of the things that really, really complex is. having these dozens of gas tokens on each chain that you need to have there in order to operate. Why? know, kind of, you know, all of our users have sweat and we are building our multi-chain in a way that whatever you do on the chain, you can pay for any action using your feet. Paying your fees with your feet is going to be one of the things that we're going to be talking about more and more over time. So at the moment, our brand is very much focused on this. I'm so curious. who wants to come into Web3 and very few projects are doing good job for them. And this is an incredible niche because if we do good job and we bring next billion people without having to give them to a phantom wallet, you know what? I'm building a future proof business. It's like, You know, when Facebook started aging and everyone realized that young people were in different platforms and you know, kind of they are aging with those platforms. Everyone starts saying, you know, maybe Facebook is not so future proof. We have future proving our business to make sure that these people are coming in. In the last couple of years, yes, they could graduate and go to another chain and install another wallet by. stacking other chains and other support for other chains. They will stop leaving and they're going to stay with us. We know how to really extend the 20, 30 million business and they're going to stay with our ecosystem. and that's a good brand. For crypto natives, I believe that it's not going to be our brand that's going to attract them, but the fact that we will have tens of millions of users, feature parity, And everyone loves a very simple pitch, I said, pay your fees with your feet, because there is nothing worse than, you know, kind of paying a lot of gas. Now in our world, I cannot say that you will be able to walk enough to pay all of your Ethereum fees. But what I can guarantee is that you'll always pay less because our app is free. You've got legs. No matter how much you walk, this is subsidizing your fees. So, even if we're economically, you know, we give you a smart AI powered wallet that supports other chains, that simplifies your whole... and is subsidizing your fees. And it's not us that makes our business models unsustainable, but it's your legs. So you don't want to pay fees, walk more. And voila. that it's never been a day without it. And everyone knows that the future is usually going to live long. to be sharper. You're going to be happier with your family. So what's not to like? Health and wealth in one product? You know, I think it's quite irresistible proposition, which is why we're growing so well, so fast. What I love in this conversation is you've brought up a number of statements that you can put so much branding around and it fits perfectly in the sweat economy in the sweat universe. know, pay your fees with your feet, know, healthy is wealthy. How did you think? I guess, how do I ask this question? Um, it feels very deliberate. It was planned that you were really, really, you and the team were very thoughtful about how do you create language around culture and around what we're doing and the focus of our mission. how did you go about being very thoughtful about that? Because it feels like, I mean, things just fit and, it didn't happen by accident. Yeah. No, I think the biggest lesson that I can share with anybody thinking of building a business is don't build it around idea, build it around the problem. And it seems like a trivial thing and, you know, kind of people typically like, you know, whatever. But while being simple, it is extremely profound way of changing your... approach to pretty much everything. And I'll explain why. If you're thinking about the problem, then you automatically think about who's got this problem. And ideally, you build solving a problem that you have, because then you don't have to go through intellectual exercise, what if, and what do they think, or run focus groups and uh run constant interviews, because All of this stuff is slowing things down. If you're building the product that solves your problem, then the worst case you're going to have in life is you will build a product that makes at least one person happy. You. The alternative is to build around an idea and then you're likely to build a product that is not going to make anyone happy, including you. So it is actually quite a kind of simple and binary thing. The other thing that focusing on the problem does is you never have to pivot. If you are solving a problem, there is no pivot. What is a pivot in classical sense is a drastic change in the product direction. If you're building around the problem, then the pivot is simply positioned. Look, we build this thing, we tested this hypothesis, we learned a lot more about the right way of solving this problem. we are modifying this product to solve this problem better. And it's a lot easier to communicate. It is a lot easier to kind of to sell to your investors and to your team. And that's true. You're just deepening your understanding and you're realizing that your initial hypothesis is just not good enough and you're modifying the hypothesis and you are slightly shifting and moving your product to address that problem better. And if you are thinking about the problem, then you're concentrating to the left, center. You observe more. as the user, as opposed to building hypothetically for somebody else. Or what's worse when you're building a business in the hope that there will be customers, but you're actually building it to earn money or to solve your own problem. That is very, very difficult to execute on successfully. So, you know, in short. we've always been solving a problem of making the world more physically active, figuring out how to convince you to do that. And we realized that the fastest, the easiest and the simplest way is to link health and wealth. And it's working fantastically, not just for people who are not well off, but it is working pretty much for everybody in the world because we have a lot of users in the US and in Western Europe. And it's appealing to pretty much everybody. So think of a user, solve a real problem, don't get bogged down in idea, but in a problem. I love that. Oleg, I want to end with one last question. Earlier in the interview, you mentioned that you were going through some things um with your prior business and you went for a run to clear your head. I want to ask about that and maybe some parting words for the audience who, many of whom are, they're going through their own troubles in business and life and... you for you, you realize or discovered that running helped you clear your head, helped you think more clearly. For those that might be in a tough position right now who, you know, who need some help in that area, like how do you help them kind of figure out to keep going, you know, keep going even though when things are hard? What's your best advice for them? It's a big question, but my starting point would always be get the ceiling off your head, go outside and go for a walk. Because opening up space around you and changing slightly the environment and the energy is... is probably the best way and the starting point to escape the rumination, the thought loops. There will be a lot more stuff that will attract your attention, will make you excited, hopefully smile. I always admired people who are running or doing sport, but I'm also realizing that it's not necessarily for everybody. For example, it's not really good for my wife, you know, to run, but we go for an extremely long walks and it does have that same effect. I realized after, you know, 10 years of building this business that in order to get vast majority of positive health impact on you, It's not about going to gym and running 20K. Actually, 20 minutes of elevated heart rate, typically for most people past 110 beats per uh minute, is about 90 to 95 % of positive income that you will get whatever amount of physical activity you would do that day. So think about it, 20 minutes of elevated heart rate? basically just brisk or walk outside and it invariably will change your train of thought. So go for a walk, get outside, no matter what the weather is. Remember, don't make it slow. Accelerate your heart rate. That's going to make you live longer. That's going to make you feel better. And if you also have SWIT coin and SWIT wallet installed, will also hopefully make you wealthier. So what's not to like? Yeah, thank you. really helpful conversation and it's made me kind of rethink some things in my own life. So I appreciate you taking the time and for the audience, know, go download sweat wallet. It's ranked 192 in the finance category on the App Store, which is an amazing ranking. I mean that it's in the top 200 even. mean that's so hard to get with 20 26,000 number one 20 but it has 26,000 reviews. I mean imagine that that So you guys have really tapped for a crypto company. That's web to first that also serves crypto native folks or crypto curious. uh You've really tapped into the consumer mind in a way that I don't think most crypto people understand. And I'm hoping that they will. This is really incredible what you guys have done. And massive congratulations to you and the team. Thank you, thank you, thank you. mean, my parking shot would be when I think about now of Web3, it does remind me of late 90s, 99, 2000 of internet. We're still as an industry focusing on infrastructure, but the writing is on the wall. The next step is going to be consumer crypto, the mass adoption. And, you know, kind of we feel that this is definitely coming and building large scale, sustainable and profitable businesses in web three is going to be the place where, you know, kind of the biggest breakthroughs are going to be made. But also that's where the biggest value is going to be created in long run. So, you know, kind of, I'm really, really excited what's coming. I'm here for it. Thank you, Oleg. Thank you, Peter. I appreciate the time.