Matej from Oasis, welcome. Hey Peter, glad to be here. Amazing. Well, this is really great. I recently met with another privacy protocol. so this is really great that get to speak to Oasis. Before we begin with some questions, we'd love to learn about you, Matej. Tell us about your origin story, how you got into Web3, how did you get into crypto? Definitely, definitely. So I'm a mechanical engineer by education and I also worked a little bit in the field after I finished my uni. And then I think it was, yeah, beginning of 2017 when a friend of mine kind of nudged me into the crypto direction. already had, I think everybody has a story about a friend. mean, I had an ex-schoolmate that kind of... told me about Bitcoin back in 2012, right? And obviously, I dismissed it as come on, because it was coming also from a guy that was usually just looking for these quick, get rich, quick schemes. So he came with Bitcoin and I was like, ah, that's just another ponzi. I never looked into it right back then. and how he explained mining and all that. But then when this other friend nudged me on it in 2017, I had a slightly deeper look and obviously the space was a little bit more evolved as well. And then I have to say that it grabbed my attention and I was kind of, I think everybody else just started investing in Bitcoin Eats and then... The ICO craze came towards the end of 2017. You think you're going to make better investments. So that was obviously like a learning curve around just crypto cycles, altcoins versus Bitcoin and all the rest. But when the bear market came in 2018, I stuck around. The tech really of really interested me. And then I think it was 2020 when I decided to just jump in full time, right? I switched over. I worked with a company that is focused more on crypto payments. It's called Nakanal. They're doing really well on the decentralized payment side. But I was always also very into the privacy kind of privacy space, right? For instance, like my only socials are... Twitter, which I don't think you can live without in crypto and LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, anything like that. If you Google me, you won't find much as well. It's just my personal preference. And Oasis was very aligned with that as well, adding that privacy to the crypto space. So when I got the opportunity to join Oasis in 2022, I obviously jumped on board. I have to say it's been a good ride ever since. That's cool. Let's get into Oasis. Oasis has been around for a few years and it's a well-known privacy protocol. Tell us, how would you describe Oasis to your mother? Yeah, it's always problematic to kind of simplify it to that level, right? But I would say it's like Oasis is your is kind of transacting that the way you're used to, right? Everything, not your neighbors, not anybody can just see what you're buying, you're who you're interacting with, right? I mean, I think we're at one level below, right? So first, the understanding of crypto and then the understanding of what on-chain privacy really means, right? Because once you get crypto, right, and how everything operates, then you only realize that crypto is not that anonymous, you know, and that people can see and track everything that you do. on transparent chains, And maybe once you get to that realization, you maybe better understand why projects like Oasis or needed to bring that the level of privacy we're kind of used to and expecting in our normal lives to crypto as well, right? Because I think there was an interesting, right? There was a wish for more transparency when it comes to financial transacting, right? But at the same time, transparency doesn't need to come at a cost of personal privacy. So you can still have on-chain verifiability without revealing everything about yourself. So I think here we're a really good add-on because we're building in a way that you can add with Oasis that you can add privacy also to the apps. protocols on other chains, right? You're not limited to just developing an Oasis. So yeah, I went a little bit outwards from the question of how to explain it to my mother, but I would say maybe, yeah, it's not the first click you get, but I think it's something that the space is moving towards where we can see the popularity of privacy preserving protocols. getting more and more attention within the space. yeah, would say it's kind of Oasis is on-chain transacting the way that you're used to, right? It sounds like Oasis is both a chain and also infrastructure that can be used on other chains and by other dApps on other chains. Having that as a backdrop, what are some key audiences that are you targeting to promote Oasis to and how are you positioning Oasis to each one? Yeah, maybe there's one distinction I maybe should make is that in essence, Oasis is not a privacy chain, right? So things are transparent, right? But you have the option of, you know, enabling, adding privacy to your apps, right? So it's more on the dev developer side where they decide how much privacy they add, right? Will it be... private transactions or will it be just some parts? It's on a spectrum, right? How much privacy you want to add to the app. maybe before it sounded like where it's some like Monero, right? Where it's not really the case, As you said, infrastructure where you have the option to add privacy in the steps that you see that it's needed, right? So going from there, right? The target audience, I would say it's more on the developer side, right? Because the user itself won't have the privacy transacting directly on Oasis, right? So if you're sending rows on Sapphire on the consensus layer, right? Because we have this layered architecture, these transfers are all transparent, right? But for instance, there was somebody that built a privacy wrapper for rows. And with that, you can also transfer roles in private. So it's more on the developers to see what solutions are in demand in the market and then build on top of Oasis on that. So I would say from the audience perspective, yes, we are more of developer focused, touching developers, finding other projects that kind of have the need within their dApps to add some privacy features, right? To kind of be able to add it simply, very simply because, very simple because it's even compatible, right? So that was one of the crucial aspects of Sapphire, right? And privacy, and the other privacy that it's easy to integrate, right? You had privacy solutions before as well, but some were broken, for instance, you know, or even in different languages. And we can see how the whole ecosystem really consolidates around Ethereum, EBM. Solana is having its momentum this year, we can say as well. But I would say in terms of developers, the predominant language is still Solidity. So, EBM compatibility is really a crucial aspect. And I think we were the first... the first project coming out, think it was already March 2023 now or somewhere there. No, sorry, it was March 2024. Oh my God, I can't remember now. Is it already two years maybe? Yeah, yeah, but we were the first out with Sapphire. I mean, Sapphire was the first confidential, EVN compatible runtime, right? And there are others popping up now, but I think it's Sapphire is, you battle test it through to that's that already working there for over a year. So yeah, it's it's definitely more of a developer developer kind of oriented product, right. But at the same time, I think users, you know, we have quite a big user base that then, you know, if other products are using Oasis tech that they feel more comfortable. using it because they know all the effort and the thought process that we put into building these solutions. Because here, it's hard to verify everything. Obviously, it's possible. But from the end user standpoint, there is a certain level of trust that protocols like ours need to develop. so they know that solutions coming from Oasis are secure, especially when you're dealing with sensitive information like private data. Yeah. Now with developers as your primary audience, how are you positioning Oasis to them? Because they have, developers have lots of options and how are you positioning Oasis that to two things to be included in their set of options and then having evaluated the options, choosing Oasis. What is the positioning and messaging to the developers? Yeah, so it's mostly on ease of development, right? As we know, every project kind of wants to focus on their own thing, right? So if it's a game, they want to focus on evolving the gameplay, not thinking about how to integrate and how to do this or that with different tooling, right? So ease of development and integration, right? So when they need that functionality, right, it's a very plug and play solution. not something that they need to spend a lot of man hours for that potentially don't have available. So for us, it's mostly that the integration is very seamless and you have a lot of optionality how to customize the solution to your needs. That's what I'm saying. The EVN compatibility was crucial here. We already have had a... privacy preserving runtime called Cypher, which was built in Rust, right? Web assembly. And it didn't really pick up that much because developers in crypto were used to oscillating in EDM. So once we were able to develop even compatible confidential runtime, that really changed the whole kind of... and change the offering that we have for the developers and the whole ecosystem. So I would say here making it as simple as possible to add these features to their dApps is the crucial point here. I remember a time when Rust was really hot though. And so it makes sense that Oasis would go that direction. What led to the understanding that it's, you know, that offering wasn't working as well as Oasis wanted it to and then switch to Rust or switch to Solidity. Yeah, I would say in the previous cycle, you know, you were able to see the real boom in just alternative layer ones, you know, because the previous cycle, if you remember, there were no layer twos basically, right? Everybody was launching the Ethereum killers. We were, guess, one of the Ethereum killers as well, right? It's interesting, right? With the layered architecture that kind of... Ethereum moved through as well, right, with the whole L2 scaling, right? We have the native layer 2s, right? We have native roll-ups. As sapphire, it's basically a roll-up on the Oasis consensus chain, right? And Oasis consensus is just consensus stripped down by the computer, then you have all the computer layer 2s. So if we can kind of make the analogy that Ethereum is also becoming more of the consensus layer and then... the majority of compute coming to layer two, it's interesting to see how this evolved, right? But I would say, yeah, the previous cycle really showed how strong, how important the EVM compatibility was, right? And that everybody was, even if they weren't native to EVM, they were deploying some sort of, know, EVM compatible runtimes, because then it was very easy, you know, forking off. successful projects from the Ethereum chain or don't know, was BNB I guess, it was very strong as well in the previous cycle, right? So it was just forking and deploying, right? And then even though I guess Cosmos is more of a space, right? And they had some adoption, it never picked up as much as I would say. everybody expected, right? And I think that was a clear signal for us that, yeah, that EVN compatibility will be one of the predominant points that we need to focus on, right? Going further. So that's why then the development went to this direction. And I think I remember, Navija, it's March 2023. So... This year, it's going to be two years since Sapphire was live. Yeah, so looking good What are some key narratives that Oasis is focused on during this cycle? There's a lot around AI. I think that's sucking up most of the mindshare right now. There's definitely a marriage between AI and privacy. Tell us what Oasis' thoughts around that and positioning. Yeah, mean, AI is definitely one of the key pillars for us going further, going forward, because not just because of the narrative, the intention does help obviously with, you know, speaking to projects, more projects working in the field, right? But just from the perspective, as you said, right, AI and privacy. Right now, if we look at all the more centralized companies, from Entropic to OpenAI or Google, they're using all of your data info that you put in there for their model training. So there's really no privacy there. And I think crypto is well positioned to create a decentralized alternative for AI. where we can actually by code, you know, get, get, enforce some of the privacy, preserve features that I think the users would care about, you know, like private prompts that are verifiably private or just, you know, having your own personal AI, you know, that's working in private with your data, right? Then you can be sure that it's not leaking your data or selling your data to. data brokers or other AI companies. But it's really working in your best interest because it's going to be interesting to see how, I mean, comments that are coming from OpenAI people on Twitter, it is kind of not scary, but strange how they're talking about what's going to be possible very soon. yeah, I think. building a decentralized alternative where potentially it can be governed in a more decentralized way as well is, I think, of the things that crypto here can help with. It's obviously not just AI, privacy still has quite a bit of adoption to do within the core crypto ecosystem. I don't know, private trading, right? think all the front-running users could benefit from having trades private or even governance, private voting right now, DAOs. The voting is all in the open. Anybody can see how we voted and it's all this peer pressure because they know how we voted. Maybe they don't want to really vote the way you want to, right? So I would say... There's a big, there's a push on all fronts, right? From these core basic concepts that we already know that I think need is still would benefit from a bit of evolution with adding privacy to them. Yeah. These kind of crypto AI type of projects and verticals, right? There's I think there's a really interesting narrative right now with the AI agents. If we look at the current spectrum of AI agents, one looking from the outside could just say it's a bunch of chat bots just posting on Twitter, so there's not much substance. But I would say that if we look a little bit further out, we can see... how powerful this can be, right? And simplifying the UI and the UX of crypto, right? We were always talking about how to simplify the UX that all the normal users will be able to kind of get on board it, you know, into crypto, utilize all the decentralized services that are available here. And maybe with agents, you won't really need to do that, right? you're maybe you're going to be onboarding them through a web 2 interface where you have then the web 3 agent that's doing your work and you're interacting with it in a natural language. So you kind of just explain to the agent what you want to do and then the agent does it in the background, right? Or even it gives you, you know, the kind of recommendations what makes sense. So maybe we can Yeah, at least partially solve the UX issue through something like this, right? Through agents and personal agents not trying to cram all the crypto into web-to-like interfaces, right? Because sometimes it's just not possible and sometimes people or projects take shortcuts, you know, and kind of escape a little bit on the decentralization part to be able to kind of simplify the... the processes to a more web-to-like experience, right? But I think maybe agents can be a better bridge of that, where we can have still real softness, but kind of better, easier UX, You said a lot there and I want to go back. No, no, it's all good. I want to go back to something you said about open AI. You said that they've said some things that are scary. What are some of those things? then going forward to what you just said about agents, would love to hear some specific use cases. And if there are any projects that are in the agentic space, AI agentic space. using Oasis would love to hear some of those use cases. Yeah, for sure. So I don't remember the specifics, but I saw some tweets, you know, about what will be possible in the very near term future with what they have in house. And that was, it was kind of, know, a bit of a warning type of tone. So I'm not sure, I'm not privy to any inside information, but The tone that was kind of, yeah, you kind of could feel it right from the tweets was a bit more on the cautious side, right? That we need to be a little bit maybe cautious, but yeah, don't, if you have any better information, you know, do let me know. it's like when someone says, if only you knew what I knew, it's, yeah. And you kind of like, you freak out, you're like, oh no, what do they know? Yeah, I mean, let's be honest, AI, mean, first, we thought, you know, that we're hitting this plateau with LMs that this is it. And then we can see how the evolutionary models is going, know, and even though, I mean, I there was a comment that, know, that AGI is getting built on Solana by My son Solana, guys, I don't really believe that Solana will be the first to come with the AGI, right? But these big companies, you know, even Croc, building and Musk building those big data centers, we don't have any insight what kind of capabilities they're actually harboring in there, right? with every deployment that they do, there is quite a bit of a leap forward. So yeah, I'm curious. But at the same time, is kind of scary being that unknown what's actually possible already and how much of that information we get. So yeah, if you do have any info, do share it. But on the agent side, yeah, for us, it's, again, you know, our positioning is more on the infrastructure side, right? Currently, the, I'd say the agents, it's sometimes hard to know, you know, where they're hosted, who have, who has controls over the agent, is it really autonomous or not? I think we saw an interesting thing happen. it yesterday or the day before? Where was it through terminal that sold off or they transferred out part coin? And it was like, okay, that doesn't seem like the action of an autonomous agent. And I think this is right now a bit of a problem where at Some things are positioned as autonomous agents, but they have a of still a lot of possibility for control in the background. Right. And I think this was already the case when it launched, right. Where it was where they were questioning if this is AI, you know, posting or is somebody in the background posting because some messages in between, you know, were very, you could know that that's been written by a person. I think it was a scam alert where it was like, don't click this or that, it's a scam, right? It was like, that's probably not coming from an AI, right? So for us, the positioning is providing infrastructure that enables basically verified autonomy and trustlessness of the agent, right? because if you're running stuff in TUs, and you have also the source, you can always verify what code's running in there, and you can be sure that is able to change that, or if they do change it, the attestations won't match. So you at least have that inside that even if somebody has the capability of changing something, it won't go unnoticed. For us, it's that, bringing basically real sovereignty to the agents. And we're speaking to platforms about giving the option of deployment in RTEs. I mean, not in RTEs. It's not like we're hosting these. can take any provider. But with our kind of framework, we call it ROFL, so runtime, off-chain logic, which means that you're running stuff. off-chain in the secure out-place with any provider you want that supports, let's say, TDX. But at same time, you have the on-chain verifiability of those apps that they're running there, that whatever it said that it's running in there, it truly is. So this is the infrastructure that we're working on. There's a project called Imperial, and they have it there. think the agent is similar at Chrome. Imperial is like... also like an agent deployment framework. We're speaking to them how to kind of align on giving the users the option to deploy agents as Ruffle apps. So those agents will have this verifiability. I think they're also utilizing SAFR in some key management capacity at the moment. But the good thing is that with Ruffle apps, I think we'll have native key management within the enclave. you're going to have that out of the box. It's not going to be an add-on that would kind of come from Sapphire. But yeah, this is definitely a very interesting sector or area that we're working a lot of focus on. As I said, I see agents like when you hear Jensen say, you know, 2025 will be the year of the agents and he's talking about the web two space, right? Then we can clearly say that there's going to be crossover when you have Web2 agents, speaking to Web3 agents and bringing that functionality across the bridge. I think, as I said, think agents have the potential to really change the UX of the whole thing. And I think it's going to be a very symbiotic development in both the more traditional space and in crypto. You, so we've talked about the AI agentic space and it sounds interesting. Some of the projects that are, are that you're that Oasis is working with. What other sectors or industries, uh, Oasis is looking to, to get more adoption in for the Oasis protocol. Yeah, so here we're very open, right? Because we believe that privacy should be in any space that you target, right? Either from, I don't know, from DID, from NFTs, from confidential doubts, from DeFi. There's a need for privacy. And maybe with the change of the administration in the US. we'll be able to have bit more open hands, know, because privacy always had the kind of bad connotation, right? We saw the scrutiny that Nero, Zcash, all these had, obviously, tornado cash, you know, had its fair share of, you know, yeah, not just bad press, but yeah, consequences for the developers, you know, and I think hopefully we can... we can go from privacy is bad to privacy is something normal. And it's not just about privacy, Confidential compute in itself is something that all the companies, everybody is used to, right? You're renting out. Either you have your own infrastructure in the basement, right? Or you're renting out GCP, AWS, cloud instances. You're expecting, you know, some kind of chelicom in the charity there, you're you're kind of relying on AWS and the GCP. But I think with this, it's confidential compute computing. The major benefit is that you don't need to rely on on the provider, to be honest, right. And you can be sure that if the if this is running the secure enclave and even the provider can't know what's happening in there and can't influence it. Right. So I would say If you want to bring more of the Web2 space into crypto, confidential compute is going to be very important because Web2 is very, how should I say, they are very about revealing their company edge, company secrets. And that's why confidential compute is crucial. So if I touch on the Paratime side, right? So paratimes or native layer twos, however you want to call it, right? You can scale multiple of those on the Oasis network, right? Sapphire is just one of the runtimes, one of the layer twos. have Cypher, as I mentioned, the Rust-based one. And we have a third-party paratime that this is a part of project called DeltaDow, where they have runtime called PontusX, right? And PontusX, I think it's part of the GAIAX European initiative for kind of, yeah, I think it's secure cloud data. But what enables this, companies actually monetize their data, but in a kind of private way, right? So private anonymous way, it's not that you need to trust somebody, you know, because you know how this would trust between know, companies in Web2, right? It's very hard to kind of, especially with data, right? Are you going to, you know, send your proprietary data to somebody else or sell it whatever you want to do? It's tricky, right? And PontusX is a network that enables this monetization of data without revealing all of your trade secrets, right? And also training AI. models based on that data without, again, giving away your edge. So I think it's one of the core components if we're at onboarding more enterprise from Web2 that on-chain privacy or confidential compute is going to play a major role. You mentioned earlier that developers are one of the primary audiences that Oasis is targeting. What channels have you found that has been helpful in reaching that audience and bringing brand awareness to Oasis? Yeah, so Twitter is obviously the biggest platform for crypto. I would say there's no second best. If you want to be in the know what's happening, need to follow crypto Twitter. So that's one channel that's definitely also very important for developers, not just the general audience, but I think developers also spend time on crypto Twitter to see one of the latest developments, what's happening. So that's, I would say, one. of the key channels. Second one, I would say, is hackathons. Hackathons are a really good avenue where they really try out the tech. It's also good for us to be able to see where... You can very easily then see where the developers have issues, what needs to be improved. from the docs to the deployments to boilerplate stuff. So I'd say hackathons are probably the best way to really quickly test out your infrastructure and your products to, again, go to the point of easy deployment integration. If they're having trouble at hackathons, then it's too complicated and we need to work on simplifying it. So hackathons is also the one. There are obviously developer communities as well on this board. So trying to raise awareness around Oasis in there as well with very specific features that we can enable. I would say, yeah, multiple avenues, but Crypto Twitter and Hackathons, would say, are kind of the two major ones that we kind of see that bring the most awareness. I agree. I found those two have been the most helpful too. We, at one point I did some testing on Stack Overflow and developer communities on Reddit and also developer communities and groups. I don't know if you've looked at LinkedIn groups. There's a, it's actually interesting. There's a, if you look at Russ developers, Solidity developer groups on LinkedIn, the numbers are pretty really, really, Yeah, it's lots of numbers, but getting access to them has been hard. At one point, I don't know if Stack Overflow is very, I don't know if developers look to using it very much anymore, but at one point, you could, yeah. was getting a majority of it from, I'm not a developer myself, but if I got stuck on something, would use, I would usually find answers to Stack Overflow. But yeah, lately I, or even for crypto related stuff, I'm not sure did they ever gain traction in that field, meaning our field. I don't know. I mean, this was a number of years ago, but Stack Overflow just, you know, with any Google query, you know, Stack Overflow would be like one of the top five organic answers. But I think with chat GPT and that's probably becoming the probably the number one source now. So, no, that's interesting. That's true. I was very used to Googling stuff. I'm still not fully on searching for everything on these LLMs. Just because I usually know what I'm going for. So it's not like... I'm asking Google to find me something as you would like to chat with you or call or whatever. And I know where I'm going. So I may be underutilizing it, but I'm finding myself more and more just putting prompts into LLMs to get a quick answer if I'm just searching for something. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. mean, it is interesting. But there's also one... caveat to think about how in the future this could potentially get monetized in a way that you don't really know where the answer is coming from. So it's a question of how biased of an answer you're getting, if it's all paid or not. I think this is if they're able to cross the chasm and get the kind of the... the usage as know, let's say Google does right we can see how much they were making or they are making from you know ads right and that positioning for to be on the one of the top results right so imagine how much you would be paying to be served in the LLM kind of response so yeah it's gonna be it's gonna be tricky tricky to kind of know what you're getting Let's switch to community. Oasis has a healthy, vibrant retail community that's interested in Oasis as a project, but these are also rose token holders. How does Oasis, I guess, position and communicate to both developer community, which is also part of, you know, Developers are also part of the community inside of Oasis, but also retail folks inside. Let's say Oasis has a telegram and a Discord that contains both developers and also retail folks that are not technical and not developers. How do you make sure that you're meeting the needs of both those audiences? How does that work? Yeah, I would say it goes kind of hand in hand, right? Because if we're able to satisfy the developers and developers then build with our tech, right? Then our community gets solutions with Oasis tech that they are able to use that are kind of the needs for what they actually came to Oasis and like about Oasis, right? If we're talking about let's say, know, privacy preserving tokens, right? And if you have an app that enables that built on top of, you know, our stack, then you're kind of getting, those needs fulfilled through that, right? So would say, even though we're talking to more developers, the more the more developers build with Oasis, you're kind of fulfilling the needs of the users as well, right? So I would say, yeah, it's a very symbiotic I think that's why we're also, even though, you if we look at the broader ecosystem, right? If you remember previous cycles, it was all about, you know, trying to get projects on your chain to develop there, right? We had, let's say, I think the first big one I would say was Rush to Avalanche. I think that was September 2021 when they launched that big incentive pool for people migrating all the liquidity to Avalon. You had all the new DEXes, protocols, all that spawning there. But I think now it's more about interoperability. think Layer 0 is really pushing on interop acceleration kind of team lately. And I do agree that, yeah, it's going to be, I think, more about these. specific chains, you know, with specific use cases, like for us, it's privacy and then being able to plug that into your, into your, that, that's so, we are still building our native ecosystem, right? So our, sorry about that, our native ecosystem. So we're, we're able to offer all of these adapts and features to our community as well. But, We're also focused on the cross-chain aspect, right? Where you already have, you know, dApps with users, with funds deployed within the dApps, if we're talking about DeFi, and just adding privacy to those dApps is, again, a nice feature where we get, maybe we even get community members, you know, in a sense where they don't really know, they don't even know, right? Because Oasis is in the background, right? So would say... We're serving our community through the native ecosystem, right? And we have almost all the essential plumbing on Sapphire, right? So from DEXs, stable swaps, CDPs, stable coins, you have all the possible, I mean, not all, but quite a few bridging options. A lending market is going to be launching fairly soon as well. There was the latest partnership with Midas, the RWA protocol. where you can have tokenized TBOs on Sapphire, which I think yields still around 4%. So all of these options are available to the native community. But as I said, think how to target both is actually through the developers offering what kind of the community wants and needs. You mentioned some about interoperability there. If I have an app that I built on another chain, how am I able to use the privacy features of Oasis if that app is on a different chain? Is that through the bridges that Oasis has partnerships with? Yeah, exactly. what you do is you're sending encrypted messages from the native chain to Sapphire. But then you do the compute on Sapphire and then you send the encrypted message back. And this is how you're able to add that privacy to any chain. I can give you two very simple examples. Imagine you have a, let's say we go to NFTs, they got a little bit of attention lately, again. If you have a confidentiality, you always kind of want some public metadata. Let's say it's a PFP or something, you want some public metadata, but let's say there's certain stuff that only the owner should kind of see or have. Imagine, or let's say if we go towards art, It was very popular to right click save back in 2021. And imagine you have public metadata, you have an image where it's a fairly low res. It looks good on the small icon, but if you want to blow it up, you can't because it's going to be just so blurry. The resolution would be too low. But imagine having in the confidential metadata, like a 4K version of that image. that only the owner can then get. That's a fairly simple solution where you can have that encrypted data be part of the... You have a mirror NFT on Sapphire and then through the ownership of the public NFT on Ethereum, you're able to that portion of the NFT on Sapphire as well. And that can be done very similar to what we call the Oasis Privacy Layer, where you're signing messages on the native chain. You're able to even pay on the native chain and then have a paymaster do the payment on Sapphire, right? And the UX is like you're operating on one chain, but at the same time, you're accessing features from Sapphire, right? Or one more, just one more use case or example. would be let's say private DeFi, right? You can have collateral on let's say Arbitrum or whatever. And then what you can do is you lock it on Arbitrum and then you kind of test what you have locked on Arbitrum and you're doing trades in private on Sapphire, right? Will go long, short or whatever. And then once you're done there, you just consolidate, you know, the balance. the final balance when you come back to the home chain. And again, this can all be done through just signing messages and paying in the native currency through Paymasters for OSAPA. So you don't even need ROSE. This is handled by the Paymaster. And we are making, I think, fairly soon version two of this Oasis Privacy Layer, because currently there were some... some issues with a little bit of latency due to the messaging bridges, right? So we're kind of looking to upgrade the solution to remove that obstacle as well. So it's going to be easier to kind of utilize within these applications. Yeah. How does the, there's always a chicken and the egg situation when working with interoperability because if you're a chain with some special capabilities like privacy, but then there are no apps on other chains that want to utilize or know about your privacy enhancing technologies yet. When you were speaking with interoperability protocols like Layer Zero and others, and I actually don't know which interoperability protocols Oasis has partnerships with or integrations with, so it'd be great if you told us that also. How do you deal with the chicken and egg problem with, hey, we wanna partner with interoperability protocol X, and then they come back and ask, that's great, we'd love to put in the work to help you, but who do you want to? to which chains do you want to connect to and are there apps on those chains that actually want to bridge over anything over to you? How do you deal with that situation? Because I think that's a pretty common question that, yeah. yeah, you hit the nail on the head there. It's definitely, it is one of the challenges that we in BD are struggling, constantly struggling with is, you know, what comes first, right? Infra or adoption, right? And sometimes you need Infra to enable adoption, but, you know, Infra wants to see adoption before they deploy, right? So we are speaking, so currently, a product protocol and seller or integrated. One additional one is going to be integrated soon as well. And we are speaking to a few more as well. I can't reveal too much, right? As you know, how the markets go. But yeah, we try to integrate as many as possible just from the simple reason that we want to enable users to utilize the tech that they're already used to. Right. So Imagine if somebody's building, let's say, again, here with layer zero, right? And then if they will need to move to a router protocol to be able to utilize our features, right? They would very much prefer to just stay with layer zero on all of their interop stuff than utilizing two different protocols, right? So even though maybe router enables everything, right? Sometimes handling two different stacks is... it's already a problem, right? So if someone's building a router, then it's no problem, right? They're already used to it and then just go with it, right? So that's why we do strive to try to work as many as possible with as many as possible. But yeah, I would say the best way forward with this is usually, you know, just align with the dApps on other chains, you know, and then showcasing the use case and then get the partner onboarded through that, right? you have a DAPT that already has adoption on some chain and then we can kind of project what could this bring in terms of traffic, volume and all that. So I would say, it's a little bit of a trilemma, but we are navigating that relatively successfully, I'd say. Now I remember Oasis being at multiple events in the last couple of years. In 2025, what does Oasis have planned in terms of events and any activations and campaigns it'll be doing? events are definitely a big part of crypto raising, enhancing the crypto awareness, right? And just, you know, be in touch with the community and be at the forefront of what are the latest developments. So, we're definitely going to be going to the major ones. I look at chronologically, think the First all, right now it's ETH Denver. We're going to have part of the team there. Then I think we're going to token 24.9 Dubai that hopefully this year will be a bit less wet. Yeah, a lot is probably an understatement. Then we have our own, I mean, our own, we have... We have the ETHAN, which is a flagship conference for us. We're the main sponsor for Ethereum Amsterdam, or ETHAN in short. They're actually also, I think, one of the most privacy-focused Ethereum conferences in the world, right? They also kind of pick sponsors that fit, that kind of, yeah, are working on the cause. So yeah, EDEM will definitely be a very good event if you're a more privacy-oriented, either user or developer, right? Then after that, have ETC. I think this year it's going to be in Cannes, or Cannes, however you pronounce it. And then I think we have a few more towards the end of the year. There's probably going be token in Singapore as well, right? And they haven't revealed the DevConnect, right? But there's some talk about Buenos Aires, if I'm not mistaken, right? So I think, yeah, we're also going to be going to DevConnect. yeah, plenty of opportunity if somebody wants to kind of meet us or get in touch at one of the conferences in their life, know, definitely, yeah. they were able to catch us there. And I think we're also going to be sponsoring quite a few hackathons throughout the year, as I said. We see that as a great avenue for getting developers to utilize Oasis features. yeah, quite a full year on the event side as well. That's awesome. It sounds like you're investing heavily in events because that's been a really good avenue for developers to, for brand awareness and also usage and developers to jump onto the Oasis protocol. Yes, definitely. I think if you're not at events, you can quickly, you know, kind of go a little bit into oblivion because you need to be present, you know, events, even though we're like a remote first ecosystem, right, where people are used to working from anywhere in the world. I think these touch points throughout the year. are really helpful in just talking about the latest developments and see where the ecosystem is going, see the direction other projects are going into, and then also try to adjust the offering that you have to help fulfill those needs. Well, that sounds like a really good place to end. Matej from Oasis, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with the Block by Block podcast. Thank you Peter, my pleasure to be here.