Ella Jonas, head of marketing at Gelato, how are you? and great thank you. How are you? Great. Thanks for joining the call today. I've met with a number of projects in the space that Gelato is in, and so it's really great that we could speak today. We'd love to learn about you and about your approach to marketing, and also a little bit about Gelato so that if there's developers and builders in the audience that are listening, we'd love for them to learn about Gelato and potentially work with you. Nice. So a little bit about me. I've been in marketing for like over a decade. Primarily, I'd say majority of my experience is coming from Web2. I worked on consumer brands and Heineken, Procter & Gamble. I also worked in emerging tech, AR. And then recently in the last two years, I've been working Web3. I've been in the last two years with Gelato. Gelato is a developer platform. Think of it as a one-stop shop for everything that you need as a developer in web3. We have a roll-up platform if you want to scale your application. And we also have a lot of different web3 services that help to improve your UX and bring really your app to the next level. That's great. Would love to hear about your experience at Proctor and Gamble and Heineken. think having that kind of like brand and like big brand and product experience is so valuable to people in Web3. Tell us like what you did at Proctor, Gamble and also Heineken. I think it's really interesting and actually like this morning, I'm not sure if you you managed to go through Twitter and check it out. I think like crypto Twitter chose violence today, especially when it comes to marketing. There were many tweets flying from left and right that 80% % of marketers or even more, think like head of talent at Dragonfly said like 97 % 7% % of marketers in web3 are no good. And I think there is definitely, potentially as the industry is starting to mature, there is more and more need for marketers that come potentially with some kind of fundamentals. And I think in nascent industries like web3, it's really hard to get those fundamentals if you've been... just in this industry without like, I'd say like a good leadership for a while. So I think like what's different really between like Web3 and Web2 is that in Web2 you get much more fundamentals and bringing this fundamentals to Web3, I think it's something that we're gonna see more and more. And what I'm truly excited about, know, like if I look also at the marketing leaders in Web3, Nate from Eclipse, right? He came from Nielsen. Dan from Sixint, came from Forbes. Ekram from Celestia. He also has like a strategic consulting background in tech. So I think, you know, like we see more and more leaders that have this kind of duality of web-free crypto native experience, but also like a core fundamental Web2 experience. And I think like, You know, like oftentimes people say that web free marketing is really different from web two marketing, but I must say that I disagree. are differences, but fundamentally it's same same. Yeah. What do you think? So you mentioned fundamentals. What are some of the fundamentals that are portable to Web3? And what are some things that you might consider fundamentals in Web2 but are different or may not even be necessary in Web3? Can you think of what those might be? Yeah. I think, you know, like taking maybe like a little bit of a step back. I think if you look at the crypto tech, it has been evolving very fast. know, like in the last year, we've seen, you know, like modular blockchain going from kind of like white papers to actual production. We've seen ZK. going from white papers to actual production. I think like at one hand, tech, I'm sorry, lamps, tech is like moving, you know, like 100 K per mile and marketing is not necessarily catching up, which means that kind of like, you know, like tech moves faster than the storytelling and marketers struggle to keep up with it. Um, I think, you know, like if I think about web two, everything is in a way slower. So, you know, like your development cycles are longer. Your go-to markets are longer. Your storytelling time where you need to convince people, you know, like about your product or service are longer. So I think there's definitely a difference between, you know, like just like ability to act to execute on the campaign. I also think that. the differences between web two and web free marketing, especially like looking at what we could do better is retention of attention. So there is like short term, um, kind of like attention versus like longer term attention. And I think in crypto, many projects still focus a lot on like hype cycles. are still focusing a lot on token marketing, airdrops, incentives in a way which I see a lot of times. They are important, but oftentimes resulting in zero-sum games. And I would love to see more sustainable brand building, looking to work towards a longer-term sustainable narrative versus trying to optimize for short-term events. Yeah, here's kind of something that I've seen. So projects that have like a legitimate platform and actually want to court developers to build on their platform. That tends to go pretty well for a while. You know, there's kind of token incentive games, et cetera. But this is like pre-TGE. But all of a sudden, like everything changes post-TGE because retail comes in and retail are often not developers or actual users of the projects. products. And so there's almost like two products. There's like the actual product that the team is building, which could be a platform, a layer one, an application on another chain. And then there's the token. And so there's almost like a couple of different audiences. There's the developer audience, the actual users of the product, and then there's kind of the retail folks. How do you think about that? Because that's not something that we've seen in the Web2 space, know, having both come from the Web2 space. There's like kind of different audiences and definitely different products. There's definitely different audiences and there's definitely different products. But what I think is that in a way, you you still have audiences and you still have products. And the question is whether you can address those audiences or can you address those, you know, like requirements of the product? And I think marketing fundamentally, good marketing addresses the pain point of the customer or the need of the customer. And, you know, like that is changing also in web two. Like if you're selling a hamburger or you're selling a shampoo, you know, like you have different needs that you want to fulfill the same way when you're speaking about like a crypto native product, whether that's like, I don't know, like a Dex or, or that's a layer two, right? All of those fulfill different roles and all of those need to have like different incentive mechanisms to attract users. And I think like what you said, like, yeah, like you don't have, I'd say in Web3, sorry, in Web2, I'd say such heavy incentive mechanisms, but you still have, you still have, you know, like loyalty points, you still have rewards, all of this, I think, you know, like fundamentally it's translatable to Web3 as well. Why would a person use your app? You either give them a great benefit and they are locked in because it's actually useful and it does something, or they're using your app because they can gain something, whether that's, you know, like on emotional level or that's like on a functional level, they are getting something out of it. And I think like the shift that I would really like to see as we are building, you know, like better application, better infrastructure is actually building stuff that's valuable for the end user because that's also going to reduce the amount of incentivization we need to do that doesn't necessarily compound over time. Yeah, and I like the phrase you use, the zero-sum games, and I'm seeing a lot of that. And it's affecting how these projects go to market and their positioning. What ends up happening, especially in zero-sum games, is that everyone sounds the same. And so, which means what that really says is that all their positioning is essentially the same. And so, being able to... What happens in a situation like that where your positioning is the same, then the only thing you compete on are the incentives, which then leads to zero-sum games. And so it's all related. Going back to the fundamentals, yeah. may I just interrupt you here for a second? What, what's interesting for me, I have like conversation. This is, know, with market things from all of these rollups that we're launching on Gelato and. what I realized that everyone is looking for a playbook, something that was executed before to kind of like reapply and play with. you know, like they're looking at the greats, they're looking at Arbitrum, they're looking at Polygon, they are looking at all of those, you know, like legacy layer twos slash layers ones and see how they incentivized and how they can reapply this into their models. And what I try to, you know, like also encourage our rollup builders is like, find your value prop, find your narrative, know, like find the first like five builders that you really believe in, invest in those. And then start thinking on how you're going to bring in users. Don't start thinking about how you're building, how you're bringing in users on a chain that doesn't necessarily have, you know, like it's value props figured out yet. Yeah, and that's great to go to help these rollups and come back to key fundamentals. When you do that with gelato clients and rollups, and you work with them on, let's say, their positioning, how does that conversation typically go? Do you give them some education on what positioning is, some examples, and how positioning leads to differentiation? Anything like that that you want to share? Yeah, think generally we can also look at it from, it actually doesn't matter if we look at it from generally or like roll up perspective. I think one of the most important things to just accept as I think positioning is that positioning is not necessarily just like a marketing job. you know, like within Gelato. Um, and also like with our roll up companies, I've, I've been working hands and hands of explaining that marketing is not the only participant in the positioning. You need to participate with, need to work hand in hand with founders. need to work hand in hand with BD. You need to work hand in hand in product because you need to understand, um, you know, like what is the vision of the founder? What is the product that we're building? What is our. be the strategy or who are the customers that we want to reach. And I think positioning in a way starts on a founder level. And I think like the founders kind of like need to set the strategic vision of the company. If that doesn't happen and you don't know what problem are you solving, then marketing can't save you. And I think like a lot of crypto projects in the space, think lack necessarily this kind of like vision of, of who we are, what I do, what am I solving? You know, why do I exist? think like marketing can help you with the positioning, but it can't figure out what do you stand for? And once you have the positioning that you work together with the founder, then you start working on the narrative and you're like, You like you need to think of like, how do I want to position myself in this industry? And then also I think what's really important is, is those like wider market dynamics. So, you know, like who are our allies that I want to work with? Who are our competitors I want to position against and who is my target user? And I think like I might be a little bit spicy here, but I think if, Oftentimes I think like if founder is not able to explain the why, then it lacks the depth. So there is nothing that can be saved. And I think like also founders that actively participate in the positioning, you can see that they have a power to, you know, like drive the entire market. for example, you know, like if you look at some of the key projects right now also on Kaito, right? Like. succinct with Uma, you know, like she's driving the whole ZK market. Like the category almost didn't exist or it existed in a very different narrative and form before she started. So I think like this is something like positioning is a topic within the marketing that requires a company-wide collaboration. Um, and, and yeah, like just like making sure that, you know, like the mission is amplified and, and. Yeah, the whole go-to-market kind of like follows. And I think an example that I like a lot to share is that Vitalik didn't kind of like just build Ethereum, right? He provided all of the, like the ideological foundation to it. And I think like that's something that, you know, like every marketeer needs to have. They need to have some kind of like foundation to start with. And then on a second note, think like what's also interesting to look at is like, where do we as marketers get oftentimes positioning wrong? Um, so I think like where we get it wrong, that we sometimes try to figure out the positioning ourselves. And I think marketing shouldn't figure out, you know, like the why that should be something that needs to be worked together with the founder. When we are not aligning the positioning with. wider company, you know, like just like the product, the BD. And when we fail to spread it sufficiently so that everyone knows about it. So in terms at the end of the day, distribution. Yeah, positioning is so hard. I mean, it's very hard. Can you share with us some experiences maybe that you had at Proctor and Gamble or Heineken that helped you learn, maybe provides nuance to positioning that we could apply in Web3? Yeah. So like all of those companies that I worked with, they have frameworks on how to position your brand. And those frameworks starts with a very simple question, which is where to play and where to play. means that you create your segmentation. You know, you try to understand the market. You try to understand who are the, you know, like users, customers. consumers in that market and you identify in a way like pockets of profit. think that's a concept of pockets of profit. think in Webfree it's like a very, maybe like almost alien concept because I think there's not many protocols that talk about like pockets of profit. But I think it's really important because it's a task that makes you focused to understanding where there is a business opportunity. And I think those pockets of profit or pockets of growth, they showcase you. For example, if I think of just, let's say, the RAS market, you can have DeFi chains, can have gaming chains, you can have enterprise chains, you can have e-commerce chains, you can have centralized exchanges, you can have legacy. L1 is trying to transition to L2 and all of those different, you know, like customers, there is a number of them that you can target. Some of the categories might not even exist. Like, let's say, I don't know, like crypto payments, so like credit cards having their own roll-ups, right? But what's important, I think, is that you define what category or what segment you want to own as a company, you know. Like whether, because you can't win at all. Like there's no way you have a strategy for like 10 segments, unless you have like a team of 20 marketers. But I think like what's important is picking like one or two segments and defining, you know, like your marketing strategy there, which should be reflecting also, for example, thinking of RAS, right? What kind of infrastructure you provide gaming, they might care about user experience more than. potentially like a enterprise client that is using blockchains just for internal ledger purposes. And based on that, you define who do I partner with? What do I do in-house? What do I outsource? How can I build the best product that I can offer? So I think that would be number one step, is understanding your market, your size of the market, and how you fit in there. And once you have this answered, you go into, you know, like, okay, these are my product blocks. How do I tie them in together? And what is kind of like the narrative and the story I want to tell about them. And obviously the third point, which I think like, it's different to what you have in web two and what free because in web two majority of the big companies, know, like you come with the legacy corporate brand here, your legacy is your founders. So you need to build in your founder story and elevate them as well because they are your source of credibility the same way as in Web2, the source of credibility is the parent company that is above you. How do you deal with a founder story or a founder that might be shy and doesn't want to get out there very much? But yet their story and the founding, the origin story of the project is so important. How do you deal with situations like that? I think like there is a lot of founders that don't want to be in the center. What I think is important is that, or there's also founders that want to be in the center, but they're maybe shouldn't be in the center, right? So you have like a lot of different faces. And I think like what's important is recognizing strengths and weaknesses. And as a marketing leader, Obviously like trying to figure out like you can also put your head of product in front, right? You can, you need to find someone who will effectively do the role of a spokesman of the company. And if it's a founder, I think that's always makes your work much easier because you know, like there's just like founders are much more appreciated, but if that's not the founder, maybe you're, know, like you have a CTO, maybe you have a head of product, maybe you have some, a dev rel. that can take your role. And especially like when within like companies, this scale, you see that the whole team is, you know, like much more actively contributing. Um, where with the small startups, you do have still a lot of this pressure on the founders themselves. So I think you need to put your eggs into the baskets that, you know, are giving you the best ROI. Um, and I think what's important here is that you achieve consistency because consistency for me matters much more than potentially having someone on the team that is not fully committed to support the communications. Here's kind of a related situation that I have found myself in. I'm working with a team and really good product, clear differentiator in the market, working on positioning, but the team, don't necessarily speak English very well. And that's kind of a situation that we find ourselves in a lot in crypto. In Web3 is that a lot of these teams are worldwide, different geographies, yet yet one of the main channels is X or Twitter, where the dominant language is English. And so being able to communicate and have a voice and a personality on Twitter is really important for the founder. Have you found yourself in a situation like that? I like. Our founders are actually like, we are a European company based from Europe. Founders are both German. Luckily, they are both very good communicators. So I don't necessarily have that issue at hand, but I do see that this can be a problem. But I think also from, you know, like on Twitter, you, people don't necessarily need to see you. And I think there's like also a lot of people within, within web free, uh, where they are completely annons. So you don't need to lend your face to the brand. It's enough if you lend your thoughts. think the bigger issue is if the writer, like if the founders don't know how to write. Um, but I think that can be educated. And I think with a little bit of training, marketing leader or team can help them get to the level where they need to be. I think the main issue can be potentially with going back to consistency and them really wanting to do it because they almost want to do it in order to be successful at it. Because they shouldn't be pushed, you know, because if they're pushed, they're There is not enough excitement from their end to really make something exceptional. I think there is a lot of noise on crypto Twitter, that in order to cut through, you need to provide value or you need to do something differently than others. And in order to do that, you need to be locked in. And I think like what we see that founders that are locked in and want to participate, I think, you know, like the spelling mistakes here or there or. imperfect writing, it doesn't matter. What matters is, I think, is the ideas. And that's also why I love crypto because it's, you know, like, no one's going to tell you you're doing bad because you're spelling, you have a spelling mistake or, you know, like you have an accent or we're so global that I think like we're past those formalities. I think you just have to go out there, put yourself out there and do it. Once you start doing it, you're going to become better at it. So I think, you know, my best advice for those founders or teams would be, you know, start doing it, start putting it out there. Maybe it's not going to happen on, you know, the first month, but I guarantee you that within a year, you're going to have a breakthrough. So. I think that's good advice. You mentioned Mindshare earlier, and I think this element of Mindshare and crypto is so powerful. But we see the same thing in Web2, but we don't call it Mindshare. We just call it advertisement, right? Or advertising, and then we, you know, in crypto we have KOLs, or influencers, but in Web2 we also have influencer marketing. And so there's a lot of kind of corollaries. We just call it different things. The big difference in crypto though is like Mindshare has a direct relationship with also the kind of like the price of the token. Whereas, you know, Mindshare in Web2 space, it probably has a closer correlation to sales, you know? And so if I go into a store and I see, you know, I don't know, some kind of beer brand, I would probably tend to end up buying that beer brand because if, you know, I've seen it seven times and it's just familiar. and has Mindshare, you know, it's taken up its occupied space in my mind. And that's where my share of my wallet goes or my, you know, pool of pocket goes. How do you think about Mindshare in the crypto space and how does like a project get more Mindshare? Yeah. So I think like Mindshare is really closely connected to narratives. And I might sound like a little bit like repetitive, but I think like narratives are in a way like more than just talking points. They are also your product and BD strategy. And they are also your community strategy. at the end of the day. And I think like, how do you get mind share is being mind share at the end of the day, I think is just about like, are you relevant or not relevant in crypto? And how you get relevant is being part of the conversation, which I spec to, you know, like founders teams having, you know, like, continuous content that is being out there, having a positioning that ties back to those narratives that are currently on optic, having a product strategy that aligns because I will not buy your narratives about AI if you have no link back in AI to your product. And I think in a way, narratives without an alignment are just noise. So you really have to have a strategy to capture it. And once you have your positioning sorted out and you pick the right narratives, you're going to be able to also hook into the mindshare. think when a lot of projects are like, how can I get mindshare? It's not just one thing. It's like the whole marketing playbook that you need to nail in order to get to the mind share. I think like, as you pointed out, rightfully, know, like mind share here also is connected to the token. I think like, you know, like also in web two, you have stocks, have, you have other things than, just the product itself. And the value of those stocks is either connected on one hand to business performance because they are securities, right? But on the other hand, it's also connected to what people are saying about it or maybe like a bigger macro economic drivers. if there was a bad season in corn production, then maybe the corn flakes or maybe like right now in US, we see the X prices going up, right? it's part of a bigger ecosystem. I think like within crypto, also tokens are part of a bigger ecosystem. I think oftentimes what you see that the price of the tokens are going, you know, like together with the market. And I think like, yes, you can short term with marketing and different kinds of incentivizations. change the curve of your token with either a token launch, a token relaunch, a staking, or any of those activities. But long term, I think you have less of an impact on it. And I think this is where I've seen a lot of interesting discussions recently is that people are saying that we need to start evaluating also performance, know, like do projects have integrations? Do they have usage? What is the profit? And going from the, you know, like this kind of like volatile token environment to something that it's much more predictable and based on fundamentals. I like how you weave positioning to narratives to mind share and how that also affects your community strategy and your BD strategy. Do you feel that that line of thinking would be wise for most Web3 projects to follow? I don't know. don't have, I will be transparent with you. I've been in crypto for two years and I've been in infrastructure. We are, you know, like building a SaaS type of business model. And I think for us, it makes sense. Whether it makes sense for a Gito like protocol on Solana, I don't know. And I don't think I'm the right person to. to answer this question. think... As your end user changes, as the ways of how you generate revenue changes, this rewrites the whole marketing game. This rewrites your whole go-to market. And this rewrites also how you do marketing. think there are protocols in crypto that are consumer focused. And that's a different kind of strategy. In the industry where I operate, we are business to business. I think majority of my day-to-day work is focused on ensuring that Gelato has more customers, that Gelato has more revenue, that Gelato is positioned in certain narratives where we want to expand into, whether that's AI, whether that's gaming, and ensuring that there's a long-term continuity and business expansion. I work less on the community side for sure. I'd say like probably my advice is bad for protocols that are looking to harness. Yeah, like just like general Repto audience, a DeFi protocol. So probably wouldn't be reapplyable. I like that approach though because what I've seen a lot of projects do is they when they think of marketing for their project or their product they approach it in a kind of a in a way that's not that's very disparate meaning that it's kind of like they they do one thing here but it's not related to this other thing here. I think what you provided is a framework to think about okay how do we think about marketing and you know starting with maybe not starting with, but positioning is one of those key pillars, which then leads to kind of the stories you tell. And the stories you tell or the narrative leads to, you know, what types of like the mind share and the categories that you might be able to kind of start having a presence in or even owning. And then that leads to your business development strategy and your community. I like that framework because it makes sense to me. Because I've tried that framework a number of times. with varying degrees of success and also failure. But looking back, I can see, okay, it's probably because I didn't do enough in this area or I may have started like downstream when I should have gone upstream a little bit more and focused more positioning. And so I like that framework and I think that framework could, with some adjustment would make a lot of sense for a lot of projects to consider. know, about applying into their specific kind of, their specific product. What, yeah. in terms of, you know, like having a framework is exactly what you said. Like knowing, like there is no perfect playbook. And I think, you know, like when we are building in a market that is so new, we are oftentimes taking first steps at every direction we go. Which means that, you know, like it might be a step in the right direction. but it might be also be a step in the wrong direction. But we won't know that until we take that step. But if you have a framework to which you anchor yourself to, then you know where you came from. And then you can step one back and, you know, like pivot and take another step in the next direction. And I think that's something that potentially differentiates, I'd say like, you know, like tier. two or three projects from tier one projects, because you need to have some kind of strategy or some kind of framework that you follow, because otherwise you end up having just tweets. Maybe you attend one or two conferences and you know, like maybe you launch a token, probably you're allowed to token, but you have no kind of like, yeah, like just like a guide of why are you doing things and how one of those things are building the next one. So for me, yeah, like building a framework or building like a thought line of how do I map out my market marketing, starting with, you know, like, where do I play, which we discussed earlier, then going into how do I win, figuring out like my go-to-market strategy. And then, you know, like, again, like, how do I execute and bring it to the market and following a framework makes your work much easier, but it also helps you to. potentially, you know, like staff make decisions, you know, like what kind of team do you need? What kind of support do you need and help you, you know, like successfully get to the goal that you're trying to achieve. And I think like in marketing, you're going to have like a lot of tough discussions with founders on resources, on budgets, on a lot of things that, you know, like have an impact directly on, on your runway. on the company runway. in order to be able to give recommendations, you need to make sure that you have some kind of framework to support them. No, I agree. How do you think about, I know this isn't necessarily your area of where you spend your time, but in crypto, you know, the token represents such an important part of, of kind of the dynamics, the mechanism design of, how things are coordinated in crypto. But what's happened in the last year, especially with pump.fund is that there's so many tokens now. And many of these tokens have no utility, don't provide any kind of use in terms of how you coordinate actions and thoughts and behaviors within their ecosystems. It's just like tons of supply. And what's happening is how do these tokens win mind shares? They win mind share through KOL marketing or working with influencers as well as some tokens do well because they have an established brand. throw this word around, but I'd say legitimate projects or projects that are actually trying to build something real are having a hard time having to compete with just a massive supply of tokens that are in the market. How do you think about that kind of situation? Because getting developers to build on your chain or use your app is important as one thing. But a lot of these projects also have tokens and they're having to compete at a whole different level against just a massive supply of meme coins that have KOLs behind them and also a brand that's probably more established than theirs. And so it's a different game that I haven't had to play in the Web2 space, but it's definitely a game that's very relevant in Web3. How do you think about that? So I think like I would probably like if you would have asked me that like six months in my role 12 months in my role you know, like 16 months in my role. And now I would have a completely different answer to it because I think it is reflected by given market dynamics. And I think, you know, like we have iterated internally on strategies for token again and again and again. And I think what's important to also be able to differentiate between the noise or the artificial pressure that it's coming from outside versus your long-term vision and where you want to be. And I also think many protocols have launched tokens potentially too early. So. not necessarily reaching product market fit, creating staking platforms where there's no APY to pay out or just something that it's not like, I'd say sustainable. And I think what's important when you do changes, you do changes that actually have, I'd say, backed by your business model, are backed by how you are trying to transform the value from your protocol to potentially your token holders and community. How can your community benefit from that value? And if you haven't figured out that yet, then I think it's difficult to build ecosystems around it or build false ecosystems around it. I think where we stand at Gelato, and I think token has definitely been one of the hot topics, is we are here for the long term. And when we will do things around our token, it's going to be when we can provide real value around it. And I think we still have work to do, I'd say, on our fundamentals internally first. And that's also aligned with, you know, like the communications that our founders have been communicating to our community in the past months. As for the meme coins themselves, I think it's hard to compete, you know, and I think it's in a way like it's right now, it's a very volatile market. If you're not there in the first five minutes, you're technically rocked. They're going up like crazy, but then also they go down like crazy. So I think there will be return to fundamentals at some point. think there is A16Z actually published a couple of days ago, a categorization of different coins. And I think like... We cannot compare meme coins with utility tokens or governance tokens or stable coins. They are a completely different asset class in a way. However, I'm also not an expert in token marketing. So those are just my own opinions, I'd say, and I definitely probably shouldn't give guidance to any of the projects on that. No, and I agree with you. agree with you. It's just one of those things as a marketer in the crypto space. It's like, you I've done, you can't, and I've done a lot of developer marketing. That's kind of where I started, right? Is to, you know, I attended hackathons to try to get developers to build on the platform that I was representing. But then you kind of can't help but, by the way, there's also a token. So it's like, you kind of have to learn how to. And it's really, as much as I hate to say it and admit it, like token marketing is actually a thing. And it's different than, you know, marketing for users and our developers for your product. And I didn't want to admit that for the longest time. I felt like if I focus on fundamentals, if I focus on developers building on my platform, that's all that mattered. But it turns out that developers, when they look at all the various platforms in which they could build. They also look at community. How strong is the community? How strong is the token? Because they're eventually going to be monetized by or incentivized by this token. so it's like I had to, it was a wake up call for me that I have to look at the broad landscape and the token is kind of part of that. But it was something I had to learn and I'm still learning and was shocking for me and it's something I did not want to admit. but it's actually a real thing. So. I think I agree with you. What I think it's important as well to, know, like as we are talking about like those different experiences is that I think like marketing just as a whole, know, like I'd say like in the not even industry, but like a branch within within your organization. It's not potentially a one person game. You know, you have people that are experts in different kind of, you know, like things within the marketing, someone you will have an expert on community, you will have an expert on the token. If that's not you, you will have an expert on positioning you were you might have an expert on event if your team is big enough, right? or you might have an expert on comms as well. And I think like it's important to understand that marketers are not superheroes, know, like we are good in certain things the same way as developers are not superheroes. And of course some developers can do a lot of things, majority of the value, you like you have infrared developers, have like front end developers, you have backend developers and the same things I think it's like, applicable to marketing as well. And, you know, like on my end, I've always said about myself, you know, I know where I'm strong and I know where I need support. And I think that's something that if a lot of people would know where they can provide value and be transparent about where they can't. think like potentially also, you know, like just the brands would look a lot different in Web3 because I think we have. some amazing token marketers, people that really understand community and you like you would want that person to be on the project, but probably you wouldn't want that person to do your positioning or potentially, you know, like you do your developer marketing or maybe organize events. So I think like finding the right team, that it's right size to your objectives and goals. I think it's extremely important. Yeah, that makes sense. Let's maybe in the last couple of minutes, let's transition to Gelato. Would love for the audience, for their developers or potential customers that might be considering a platform on which to build. Please tell us about Gelato and the types of customers that Gelato is looking for or targets in SERBS. Yeah, so Gelato is a developer platform. And one of our key products is Rollup as a Service. Now, Rollup as a Service is a product for teams that want to scale to the next level. I think it's for teams that are already, I'd say, to some extent established, or they know that they will have certain amount of usage, because I think What's the most important is that you don't just launch a chain because that sounds cool. You launch a chain because you're trying to tap into a scale. So what we do at Gelato, we help mid to large size projects to provide them with infrared rails and scale their project to the next level. And ultimately that's what Rollup as a Service does. You can choose between different stacks. You can customize your chain. You can really make it fit for your user instead of potentially, you know, like deploying on a on a standard ecosystem layer two where you need to compete for bandwidth, you have fluctuating gas prices. So if you want to have more control over a larger ecosystem, then you should definitely deploy your own chain. Now, we also have web-free services which span from relayers, account abstraction, which help you create gasless transaction, help you to improve your UX. We also have randomness with VRF, which help build like gaming, gambling applications. We also have functions that help you automate and bring off-chain data. So there's like a lot of different kind of like web-free services that developers might need to defy NFT gaming. Think of it as like kind of like a full dev toolkit to whatever you need. I think Generally, why people choose working with Gelato over having it done in-house is because we deliver infrastructure that has been battle tested. A lot of projects, still up till today, they think that it's going to be much better if I do things in-house because then I have control. But the reality is that doing in-house means that you need to have like probably a team of 30 developers that are just focusing on your infrastructure. And instead of like building the application or, you know, like just like really fulfilling your purpose and think of Gelato as your extended team for infrastructure so that you don't need to worry about, you know, like day-to-day developer backend. but just focus on your front end and delivering your product to your end user. I've worked with a few roll-up as a service providers, and I believe at one point had a meeting with the folks at Gelato. This was a while ago, about a year, a year and a half ago. And was just so impressed at the breadth of services that roll-up as a service providers provide and how easy it is to deploy a roll-up. Did you ever envision that it's so easy to just roll-up just deploy your own chain. I mean, that's a huge value add. Yeah, exactly. know, like thinking of, of like, even like two years ago for teams, took a year or two to, you know, like put together their chain, optimize it, figure it out. And now, I mean, I'm a non-technical person, but I can still go on Gelato, you know, like RAS application, deploy my chain, define my, you know, like bridging configuration, take out, I don't know, like layer zero. Gold Sky for indexer, let's say, or like Zero Dev for account abstraction. And in technically like five minutes, I configure my chain. I decide what stack I want to build up on based on which ecosystem I want to be more aligned with. And in five minutes, yeah, I have a fully functioning chain on which I can deploy my app chain on or build my ecosystem around. But I think generally this really goes in line into where Web2 cloud computing is. You are deploying websites. You don't even say that you're deploying a website. You're building a website in a couple of minutes. are being able to just buy your server space in a couple of minutes. So all of those things are. really super easy and accessible. And at Gelato, we're striving to bring the same kind of developer experience to Web3 as well as developers are used to in Web2. So it should be as easy as going on your Google Cloud or working through yourself. So the same kind of user experience we're trying to bring to Web3. And you're certainly doing it with Gelato. one vision I heard a while ago was that at some point, you know, we're going to see like a thousand rollups blooming. We're definitely seeing that, you know, the rollups are because of rollup as a service providers, rollups are now very easy to deploy. But one problem we're seeing is that a lot of these rollups are not differentiated from each other. As a marketing person and as you're working with clients that deploy a roll-up, let's say in Gelato or some other competitor, and you don't see a lot of differentiation, do you give them any counsel or how do you work with them or do you work with them on the marketing side also? So we do work with all of our clients. you know, like I offer advice to marketers. We work together sometimes on positioning, sometimes on messaging, sometimes only the launch campaign. It really depends on how much support they wish to have. But oftentimes because those are like mid-sized teams, they already more or less know what they want and how they want to be positioned. So I'd say they require less support on the positioning side, or they already believe that this part of the equation is already figured out. And oftentimes those projects have been in works for, they're not like new teams that come. Okay, I want to have a roll up, I'm going to deploy it and then figure out what's going, what I'm going to do with it. It's like, this is what I'm going to do. And I need a roll up because I want to provide a better user experience or I want to have cheaper transactions or faster transactions or, you know, like something that it's connected back to their product. Or they want to have an experience that potentially is not available on the public chain. Or oftentimes, you know, they also want to monetize better and having your own chain allows you to monetize better because you're not paying rent to an ecosystem L2, but you're capturing this value yourself. I think the same way as, you like you have more and more similar applications in web two and you have like five social media platforms, we're going to see the same in web three. Ultimately, you know, like there is just as much new ideas, you know, The new ideas are limited and as soon as there's a good idea, someone tries to take, have a different take on it. And I think like we're reaching a certain maturity of the market where not every chain lounge is going to be a completely different idea, but it might serve a different customer base. It might serve a different region. It might have, you know, like a more like DeFi oriented take versus another one more NFT focused. So I think the. differentiation between the products, it's going to become more subtle. And I think as in every market, you know, there's going to be a couple of big applications that are going to have majority of the market share. And there's going to be thousands of smaller upcoming ones that are going to be fighting to, you know, like get the mind share and get the recognition and maybe become one day one of the greats. Also, if you think of, you know, like your internet usage, probably you're not. browsing 20,000 websites or hundreds of thousands or millions of websites every day, you have like probably a set of like 10, 15 go-to websites that are consistently, you know, like in your repertoire. And I think the same will happen with, with web free. We're going to have tens of thousands of applications, but there's going to be, you know, like users are going to probably be on a couple of few and then the rest. will be startups that are looking to, you know, like carve out a space for them. And I think that's why potentially also like tribalism is going to become much more important to finding tribes, finding like mini applications. And that's why it's also important to bring the infrastructure costs down because I think they're still very expensive today. What I love about your answer just now and really this entire conversation is the level and breadth and the depth of your understanding of marketing and kind of consumer psychology and how you're and I'm so grateful that you've brought that to crypto because we need that level of maturity. know, we, you know, a lot of the folks in crypto are I think generally young. Some have come from web to some have our native kind of crypto marketers and they're still learning the game. And I think you bring a level of kind of education that I think we all need. And so I really appreciate this conversation that we've had. And so thank you so much, for spending the time with us, telling us about Gelato, and also for helping to educate us on kind of the fundamentals of marketing. I really appreciate this time. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for providing the space. And yeah, I'm always curious to learn and see different opinions. And this conversation was great. Thank you so much, Peter.