Adam Bates, Chief Marketing Officer at Xion. Welcome. It's nice to meet you Peter. You might have the honor, don't think it'd be a pleasure actually, of being the first proper podcast I've done since I've joined Xion. I've been on a few spaces but you're the one that actually wants to record my ugly face. Well, don't choke on your coffee let's, I think we have a lot to talk about today. Xion is, uh it's not necessarily a household brand, but though it's been making some waves recently and would love to hear about the project. But you come to Xion from, uh with a really rich history in blockchain. You spent your time at, a lot of time at Cardano. um and would love to hear about your time there, how you entered blockchain in general, and then we'll get into Xion. Does that sound good? course, of course it does and also just on some housekeeping if I'm talking too much because I'm in marketing Just give me a timeout and say well, well, well, stop we're running out I am used to it, but I'll just keep talking to you. me to stop really. Stop Shut up, you know those sort of thing you might as well be open and direct so um Well, let's start at the very very beginning I am a crypto immigrant. I'm not a native You can probably tell that by some of the little bits of gray and a few things in here. I'm very much started off in web two and then drifted into web three. And what drew me in was actually I turned it down to be honest, to start with someone said, you should go and talk to IOHK as it was and talk to Charles about Kodano. And I knew a bit about Ethereum and a few other bits and pieces, know, Bitcoin, et cetera. But I said, I don't really know if I'm the right. fit for this. I've always worked in tech and finance and nanosatellites and launching contactless payments. I've always liked this sort of this tech and so the recruiter, obviously because he'd like his 20-30 % said well probably talk to Charles. Okay fair enough and I did and he's a lovely man. He's one of the nice kindest sweetest people you'd ever meet, one of the most intelligent but we didn't talk about blockchain. We just talked about creativity. and everything from samurai warriors to studio ghibli to how you build a brand out to what you like, what you don't like, just tone of voice, languages, just all this creative stuff, to do with blockchain. And I guess, and it's going to sound a little bit pompous, it's sort of like a meeting of minds really, we were both pretty creative at heart and my job was to amplify what his ideas were and to bring them to life and probably vice versa. Yeah, and that's how it started. If I'm really honest that... deep technical knowledge of blockchain and everything is not what I'm about. I'm a marketeer and it's about making it simple. And because my background is in creative, I was a creative director and I was a writer before that, I've always told, this is what you do, three words and a banana. And if you can't tell your story like that, then you're not doing it. And I guess for Xion, they're one of the few blockchain brands out there that says, make. Crypto disappear, three words. And that directness, I think, is something that's missing. But I think with just going back to the Cardano thing, yeah, we had a lot of fun and we actually made it a very, very popular, well-known brand. Some people love us, some people hate us. But I think the time that I spent there was probably one of the most enjoyable I've ever had. It certainly the most intense, was certainly the most fun. But we created some amazing marketing and we built an incredibly strong community, not just not just me, not just Charles, just everybody in the whole team because that's how it works. But yeah, it was a perfect storm. It really was a perfect storm. Now, if we were to generalize what you just shared, and you take what Charles says and some of his vision, his ideas, and then you make it simple for the audience, how does, if there were a blockchain project listening to this with a highly technical founder, and their job is to do the same thing, how do you recommend to them? How do you go about doing that? Since a lot of technical co-founders are just, they love buzzwords and jargon and complexity. talk to your mum, talk to your nan, talk to the biggest and ugliest guy in a biker bar, tap him on the shoulder and you've got one sentence to convince him not to smack you in the mouthpiece so he understands what you're saying. And it really is that simple and we get so wrapped up in it in our space. uh And it's hard. There's a phrase I was making, uh Jean, one of the co-founders laugh, I just said the phrase, if I had more time I'd have written a shorter letter. I think Mark Twain said something like that. yeah. And it's true. And it's not easy. And yet, you know, when Apple do think different and they go, well, there you go, that's the culmination of six months work and a $10 million bill. And you go, two words, But it's just something that sticks in the mind and it's hard. It's hard to get there. And in a business where everybody's trying to do stuff fast, I think that's why so many of the brands... look and feel the same. You could put your thumb over most websites and over most logos of most brands and they'd all be saying the same thing in our space. Very few have a clear go-to-market position in, I mean, Bearishand, they've got a great look and feel, you know. Would you know what they stood for? That could be a different thing. And I think at least one of the things that we created with Kadano was the DNA, the audience that we're going to. We were scientists. At heart, had more white papers. Charles was a scientist. He loved that. I he would read white papers to relax. Most of us, gives us hemorrhoids of our cerebral cortex. But it was true. That's why I'm involved with Carnegie Mellon University and other great research institutions as well. And I think that now is paying dividends for them. So I would urge, back to your question, any brand or any project out there be true to themselves and just try and try and understand what makes you different, what problem you are solving. And then will the world be better with a web three solution? Because if it's not, then there's not much point of you existing to be honest. And eh yeah, there's just lots of things within this space and marketing, but you're right. There's the good days where there was massive treasure is. you were building stuff as passion projects, unlimited money you could code to your heart content. There is a new era of reality coming in now where it has to be run as a business. And I think that that's going to hit home and that's where brands will make a difference. You you might buy Nike over Adidas over New Balance, they're ultimately just shoes coming off a production line. that you associate with the DNA of the founder or the people or the attitude, it just hits home. One thing I'm very encouraged by is the movement that I'm seeing by founders in focusing on user experience, user interface design, and also simplifying the language and abstracting complexity away from the user. I'm seeing this more and more now, and I think it's about time. I mean, it's the only way that crypto really makes it to the mainstream, becomes appealing to the mainstream. And at some point, we'll even stop using the word crypto or blockchain altogether. Eventually, eventually, um No, this is really great. I appreciate you sharing how you came to Cardano, what you learned from there. Tell us about Xion. um Maybe explain for the audience who haven't heard of Xion, a quick headline and then tell us a bit more detail about it. Well, I could do the sort of pitch on it, I guess. They have 200 plus, they're an L1, and they've got 200 plus AAA clients on board, like Uber, Amazon, Burger King. We've just announced today, um Javianos, so Javianos, they're like Brazilian beach flip-flop brand, Travelex, Aperol Spritz, North Face, Lego. You know, so first of you also go, hey, we're going to onboard the next billion users and we're about mass adoption. The thing that appeals to these guys is that they're starting to work with an awful lot of these big brands. And what's beautiful is these brands actually probably don't know they're working with us. It's just a piece of technology working in the background, which is how it should be. You don't need to know how your iPhone works, how your Tesla starts, how your GPS tracks you. You don't. It should just work seamlessly. um They're well funded, you know, think up to 36 million, you know, behind them. And there's some pretty big names in there as well. So that gives you the reassurance. They've also always been in New York and in America, which, you know, there's a lot of companies trying to break in there, but they they've toughed it out. But probably the thing that I think sets them apart is their line about make crypto disappear. And I think that's I always thought the biggest barrier to Web3 adoption is UIUX. Most blockchains and most crypto projects have a 95 % drop off when people try and sign up to use them. Hey, we're the most technically advanced products in the world. But first of all, Lies, could you get a paper and pencil and write down a secret word? I mean, come on. mean, how do you think Facebook would still be going if you had to do that? And so... these guys have a 3 % drop off rate. So you put aside anything to do with the benefits of Web3 and trust, but the idea that users can use it really easy. mean, you can log in with your finger. You can log in with Face ID. There's all these Web2 user experiences that Web2 don't care about Web3. We think we're special. We're not. They don't even know we're called Web3. And so everything that we can do... to make it super easy not to change that user behavior and to make it really straightforward and intuitive. That's what I do. And that's the appeal of Xion really. always, you know, if I had a very, very, very selfish goal, I would love to be able to stand up in my local pub or my local bar and say, hey, I work in blockchain and crypto and not everybody go, the devil, you know, look at Squid Games recently. Squid Games, some of the people that are in there are because they lost money on crypto and this is a Korean based game. You know, TV series and it's got, you know, the one out trades the dollar a lot of times. And even there crypto has got a bad name. I mean, I was out there and I said to someone, well, could I just take my picture with you? No. Why were you in crypto? Well, I tell you, should we just share on TG? No. If they find out I'm connecting with you on TG, it could be my job. It's like, wow guys. And you're out trading the dollar a lot of times. So anything I can do to change that from a sort of selfish point of view, but also. make it easy for people to build and develop and get into it. I would have done my job. That's really that simple. And I think these guys, because of the brands that they've got on board, because of their approach, uh because they try and keep it really simple. And also the final thing in our space and probably with a lot of marketing is that you need a very charming, charismatic, uh personable. humorous, different CEO. mean, watch a lot of football games, whether it's American football and usually the coach, yeah, you know, I with the team, they work really well together, they played the best, but you know, it didn't quite go. And you just like, God, it's just Monta. Look at Anthony, or Banksy as he's known, and just look at his character. And he reminds me very much of other CEOs I've worked with that have this spark and this fun and this energy. And you just connect, and Charles as well. Charles had a personality. And I think that's really, really important. And it doesn't have to be nasty. It just has to be true to the brand. And I think one of the massive reasons joining them is they're all fun, creative people. And I want to wake up in the morning and be fun and be creative and just do something people notice. know, it's, you know, there's this mediocrity of marketing that is just based on data and being safe is just like, boy, it's just really. Dull. Yeah. You mentioned the 3 % drop off rate. How does Xion accomplish that versus, and what's the standard based on some of the research you've done in crypto? Yeah. So I can't give you a full technical insight. All I know is that they very, very simple. Like you could log in with Face ID or with your finger or with an email or you can log in on your Xbox and you don't have to have anything to do with the wallet. There are no gas fees. So you think of all the barriers. I mean, just do an idiot's guide, let alone be nice UX. But it's like, okay, so you and I going to go to a restaurant, okay? Mm-hmm. gonna go to a restaurant. Before we can come in, I need your special phrase. Okay, right. Now can I, okay, hang on. So now you gotta go to another, Peter, Peter Adam, can we go to this other restaurant over the other side of the city now? Okay, so we walked there. That's great. All right, so we're gonna sit down and do it there. And we're gonna have a meal there. ah But we can't take your credit card. By the way, you're gonna have to go to this other store and buy the magic Peter and Adam token. And then when you come back, okay, then you can order my food. you just wouldn't do it. And you you're laughing, but we take it for a norm. mean, you just wouldn't do it. There's too many things in the way. You know, and the fact that even if you could log in, I mean, oh man, do you see this? Do you see this device here? Okay. Now, this is a mobile phone. And you know what? Not many people in our space will let you build on it. Strange that, because I don't think it's going to catch on. But I mean, it's just real 101 stuff. your user has a behavior. Make it easy for them. Whether you, whatever you think of Amazon or iOS, their UI UX experience is amazing. You know, they tweak it and tweak it and tweak it to make it work. Like I think was... reading a story or listening to someone just saying some of the things that tweaks on one of the travel things. says, instead of it going your flights, it said my flights and it increased sales by 5%. And Sky, part of Fox, I still think it was the most beautiful buttons ever. get excited by a button. But you know when you've been through a really long process and then it says pay now and you go, what am I actually paying and how much am I paying? And it just put pay $25. And to me that was the most beautiful, I love UX. I can spend hours just on one thing because it just makes it really simple. There was an app, I'll just go and then you can do time out. Worked for a while on a FinTech product. It had one of the most beautiful bits of UI, UX, CX, everything. So you open your banking app and it's green. It says, you're spending less. Would you like to save some? Yes, that's it on your home screen. It doesn't ask you what's the APR, what's the interest rate. Would you like to restake it? If it's red, it goes, spending a bit too much. Do want to transfer some for your saving? It make it effortless and easy for you to do and get on with your life. And that's all we're trying. That's it really. I can't give you the technical thing. I'm not a technical person. I'd be lying. you'd spot a you know, source that's talking about 4327 or 4237 and conversive snarks and all this sort of stuff. And abstract, mean, abstract doesn't, nobody cares because you're abstracting something that nobody knew that they didn't want. So don't talk about it. I, my view. I'm a simple person in marketing. No, and I appreciate that. think that view, we need more of that type of, that experience and that view pointing. I went to grad school with a guy named Asa Raskin and his dad is Jeff Raskin, the inventor of the Macintosh. And he used to tell us a famous quote that his dad would tell him and I don't even know if he's known for this quote uh publicly. But he used to say that the best interaction is no interaction. And then he would go on to explain that uh in various use cases, like in customer service, for example. The best experience is not having to call customer service. um Or user interfaces. Some of the best user interfaces are guided. They really help the human. But what if you didn't even need that kind of guidance? just naturally takes you to, helps you accomplish your goals. um I think that kind of thinking, we definitely need more of that in um this thing that we were building in blockchain. um building something and then it doesn't work. That's like saying your baby's ugly You know, so it does hurt the other thing I'd say is the happy path is easy Happy path when it all works is fantastic. The way your effort should go is the unhappy path when something doesn't quite work Can you go back? Can you log in what happens? I spent ages developing Oops sorry and unfortunately there's three error messages for a bank it was like oops maybe she'd it again um sorry we don't seem to have got that unfortunately you're under 18 and even that had massive traction i posted something about x one of their messages that came up oh try again hey it's all right and these these little things rather than saying error code 47321. You go, what is that about? And you'd be surprised how I'm telling you now as an advocate for an error message on X, trying to do a post. That's what it's about. just, even when it doesn't quite work, it's still a chance to engage. And I, I was a writer at heart, so two really beautiful example, keep off the grass. That was one. And they did another one that just said, I'm new grass, I'm ever so tender and gentle, please don't hurt me. Now guess which one that people kept off? That nice charming human one rather than people don't go on the grass. And little things like that, but it takes time. And it takes love and it takes understanding to do it. Yeah. Well, how are you applying your learnings to at Xion? Maybe tell us ah simplifying the message, maybe working with your engineers or product development on making the onboarding easier for users. ah I guess what role does marketing at Xion play in all of that? think, well, one thing is I've only been there a little while. So for me to have influence over the engineer and what's being built, ah it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen yet because it's just, I'm new there. I think marketing has a very simple role ah and it comes down, you know, a big idea is worthless if nobody knows about it. And my job, if we go back to the restaurant that we couldn't get into, because it was really complicated, is I just have to get people into the restaurant. That's what marketing is. Now, if you can't make a decent pizza, a burger, whatever it might be, I can't do that, but I can make them want to come in. And I think that's what marketing does. I mean, there are rare exceptions like Apple that they could produce something like the iPhone, but it wasn't really a phone. You couldn't make phone calls. You had to hold it like this, if you remember. Well, you've got that brand loyalty, but you make people... Want to come in and learn about you and there's two this really simple tricks one is Make it easy to understand make it easy to share if you only did those things So can I understand what you're talking about and could I pass it to my friend? that's it that that's the ultimate thing for a lot of these products and So many brands and it's not just within our space don't do that. And again, I'm not saying it's easy, but it's like Why should I care? Your time's precious, Peter. My time's precious. Why should I even bother trying to read or find out about it? So make it really easy for me to understand, either because it's humorous, engaging, it's in depth, it's insightful, it's in the channels and the place where I live and operate. And then make it say, oh, that's really fun. I'll share it. How often do you see something on IG or TikTok or exit you share? That's what you should be doing with your brand and your message and your story. So I think... Everyone goes, I've got this playbook. Well, yeah, you might have. It's an experience book that says what it does or doesn't work. But I think that's all marketing can do. It can get people through the door. If you've got a great product, fantastic. You actually don't need that good a product, to be honest. You can have a great brand that people love and you can have great customer support. You said that earlier. There are products out there that aren't the best. but people love the people that are there. Everyone thinks it's all about price and is it cheap? But actually, no, you'll go to some places and the food might not be the best. I'm using the restaurant thing. The food might not be the best, it might not be the cheapest, but the people there are lovely. And it's a great thing, whereas you go to a high-end restaurant where it's got Michelin stars, but oh, I feel really uncomfortable. So there's all these little factors that are out there. ah But ultimately, I suppose if you look down the community thing, that the one thing the community need is love. I think more than anything else, it's just to show that you care. It's a relationship and it's hard. ah You need a particularly big team to do that, I think, where they can give you time. One of the things I learned at Cardano, and we had some brilliant people in the community team, is that they spent a lot of time with them. and they talk to them and they listen to them. And I brought him and I brought him like the Codano 360 show, it was a chance for them to showcase their products and be heard. It's like a relationship, know, communication. They don't have to have the best projects. You don't have to fund them. You just have to be there for them and listen to them and try and help them. And they're pretty basic things really. It's like being a coach of a football team. You know, you just have to get the best out of those players and make them feel wanted. You can do it through fear. and the stick or you can do it through kindness and the carrot. I'm more of a carrot person, I have to admit. Now, if you were to guess, why do many crypto projects not do what you're recommending here? Or even know about it? Well, I think that I think a lot of them are engineering focused. So they are an engineer's product built for engineering and they've been very lucky with massive treasuries they haven't had to sell. know, and our business model is you wouldn't run any other business this way. The only value is in is in the speculation on your token price. You don't make a profit. So the whole business model is completely different and you're operating this little bubble. where everybody you talk to is talking the same language and it's very nice and you like on this little island and everybody's really happy. We've got all unlimited money and we've all got super rich and we can build stuff and then all of a sudden as is happening now, the real world is sort of coming in and getting to your utopia. So I think that it is formed by engineers. I think they are by nature very protective of what they're doing. My experience, but not with all engineers, I've worked with some very... I've had some people say, Adam, will you shut up? If you've got something to say, put it in a report to me and I will read it. And I've said, fine, I'm not going to read any reports you send to me. I need you to talk to me. So there is this way of doing it. There is no science behind marketing. Yes, you can have data, but you can make data do everything. And I think that's it. And we don't need marketing. It's only usually when things don't work out that people blame marketing. But when it's successful, it was all down to the engineering and your own intuitiveness. to buy Solana when it was only at one cent. But everybody when it doesn't work out likes Martin. But they don't understand how marketing works. Nobody likes, I'm not, most people go, I'm not influenced by marketing. What's your favorite advert? Super Bowl ads, love the Super Bowl ads. fantastic. Do know what I mean? It's, nobody likes to say that they're influenced, but I think a lot of projects, they're all built by engineers. And that's fantastic. But like, someone who's brilliant at this as an engineer, across it is Musk. Why would you throw away the plane after every single flight? So he suddenly makes it the technology and what he's trying to do. And if you were to ask any of the founders, is the problem you were trying to solve? Because the world doesn't want TPS. Do you know what I mean? Nobody's really said what is blockchain or crypto trying to solve? No, you're right. No, you're right. It's in many cases in blockchain, it's they come up with a solution and then they go backwards and try to fabricate a problem, And, uh but I think that that kind of phenomena is pretty common in nascent industries where it's, it's some level of innovation, it's brand new and everything looks like a toy and they haven't really figured out exactly what problems they solve. It solves yet, but There's a there there and I think it's kind of up to us to figure that out and as we mature as an industry like we are right now in simplifying our language and looking at all the points of friction, how we can reduce or eliminate those for the user. That's all super positive. I would say that just to build on that a little bit, which is a horrible phrase, I hate all these, these business, oh, we're gonna build on that, I'm gonna reach out to you and all that rubbish. It is, we do like a bullshit bingo, you do that, you're in trouble. So all these stupid things, not allowed to say NFTs and all these, you know, there's a penalty for saying these words that don't mean anything. But if you look, the point you make is really well made, but look at the big and most successful tech, Facebook. Facebook even originally was designed for people within the own college environment. I think it was called The Facebook. So it was designed with humans in mind. And then look at Apple, the 10,000 songs in your pocket. They just wanted people to be able to use their product. So they were always putting the user first. And I don't believe that blockchain and crypto puts the user first. And this is why I joined Xion because It's about putting the user in the driving seat and what they want. um Put pretty simple, but I'd say yeah. Facebook and Apple are two brilliant examples of where, and even Tesla to a certain extent, they just put in the consumer, the user first. And that's why they're massive brands. Yeah. Tell us how Xion puts the user first and then maybe help the audience kind of understand about the Xion as a layer one, some of the applications on it and some, maybe some of the more recent announcements. mean, Xion's made some big announcements with partners that are household brands. I can't, like I said earlier, can't delve into all the technical stuff. I'm relatively new to it, you know, so I'd be lying. But things like, you know, since I've been there, the idea that you could log in with Face ID. Great if you could do that with most things. The fact that you could log in on your Xbox, the fact you don't need a wallet, the fact you don't need a passkey. All these things are what's designed. The fact there's a one click launch. Everything to make it super easy to get into it. So they're some of the key features, I think. That's how they are making it easy. I think the language, and there are things that I would like to change and improve, et cetera, but they try to talk and speak in a non-technical way as well. I know the website and a lot of stuff has a lot of information on, and we'll refine that. We would like to make it feel and look like an app store where it was much more intuitive, but they're getting there, and they don't use big complicated words and fancy diagrams and all these flows. You're just, well. And I think that when you look at the partnerships that they're working with, they're incredibly strong because they're household names. And that has two advantages for us is one, opens the door. Cause if you go, well, who the hell are you? So while we're working with Uber and we're working with Lego and working with North Face, it builds that trust, which an awful lot of blockchain projects don't have as well. And if I'm honest, those partnerships probably don't know they're working with us. And part of my job is now to amplify us. go, you know, say someone like a bank's probably got 25,000 suppliers doing everything from toilet rolls to doors to computers to everything. My job is to make people go, oh, that's interesting. So the CEO of Lego, Lego were my clients, so maybe I might have a little head start there. But they go, that's interesting. And so they take notice of you as well. So I think they are door openers in these brands and it gives you a reassurance. I think that's really, really important. Rather, I posted something that just said an ecosystem, not an ego system. So they're brands that you've heard of. So at least we're trying to work with these and they're coming on board. Now we need those brands to go, wow, what are these guys? And there's a few things that I'm already working on for events and other announcements and other bits and pieces that... will accelerate that. You'll get some even bigger household names that we will start working with. go, that's interesting. mean, even barriers to developing, you know, just ways that, you know, there's probably got 10,000 web three devs in the world, you know, and probably a lot of them are doing maybe, maybe, yeah. And a lot of those are grant fund. We don't do grants. If you want to build something, we'll help. But our audience is web two, web three devs and not high-end devs either. people that want to learn it and entrepreneurs, you we use this line, believe in something and it's like believe in your dreams. We'll give you the chance to do that. And we'll try and remove as many barriers to making you do that. You know, my son, he's pretty bright. You he should be able to build on it without any previous knowledge as well. And you should be able to see, rather than it just being on a very closed discord group or a TG, it should be on TikTok, it should be on Instagram and it should be on Facebook. These places where the web 2 and most people go, I was on a podcast recently, at the end of the interview, because we're all talking about web 3, and he goes, OK, so what web 3 apps do you use? And none of us did. That sucks, don't it? It just shows, because we suddenly put a consumer head on. Yeah. Maybe take us through. uh So here's an example. I'm looking at the Xion blog and Uber, North Face, Tmoo, Prime, like some big, big brands. I would love to hear how, uh for example, how Xion is working with Amazon Prime. Like tell it, what does that look like? Okay, let's do Uber. this one. But it could work for them. So basically it's marketing. So you're Uber, and you go, would you like to target the top 10,000 Lyft users? Well, I would. And I could be Robin Hood and say, like to target, or eTorrent, target the top 10,000? OK, prove it. That's where blockchain comes in and says, we know, we can verify. God that's an awful word. I'm trying to avoid words like that. You can trust web3 that they are real users so you can target them properly and it's really that simple. It's not trying to do anything cleverer so your marketing is more effective who you reach out to and so you just know these users are genuine users. That's it. That's an interesting use case. How did the team at Xion, well, first of all, it's it's urnOS, which is an application on Xion. Was this, is this a separate team or part of the Xion team? You're asking questions from a newbie here, but they're not in-house. They're building on Xion. So again, they're building something that is attracting brands. And again, Xion's in the background. Anyone that goes on to earn OS, it rewards people that are helping these projects got off the ground, that are building apps and that. It's just making it nice and simple for users. And actually not users, it's making it easy for these brands to find customers. That's it, making it really cost of it. It's just someone said to me, and we're like a marketing chain. Yeah, that's what we do. We were in the real world really where people want to sell. The way that we look at it is like say something like Shopify. Would you like to take your customers money? Do you know what? I think I would. And you go, well, would you like to have more effective marketing? Well, probably. Yeah. And it's honestly, it's not rocket science. We're just doing what... what people want and what brands want. But if you ask me again, please, you're the first person I've spoken to as a podcast, et cetera. So some of this deep stuff, Anthony was here, he'd go, yes, it's a smart contract on the protocol level. Yeah, fine. Everything's 4327. Great. And actually, know, in a nice way, we don't really care. You know, the engineering team builds stuff that works. We're not... You know, we will rather buy stuff in and integrate stuff because it helps get to market faster and builds a better solution. Of course we'll do that. You know, it's like, well, I'd put a Mercedes engine in my Formula One car rather than build my own. It's like, well, why wouldn't you? I know it's a bit weird in our space where everyone's, know, chewing glass on all these stupid phrases. might see, actually, might see some really interesting marketing around that in a bit. Why? It's like... Why would you want to chew glass? Wouldn't you want to be, you know, eating a burger? Why are you proud of putting yourself through pain? know, don't. That's all we're trying to do. Yeah. No, that's a good point. You're referring to a phrase that's used at the Solana ecosystem. But that phrase has helped to solidify, because they've gone through lot of ups and downs and peaks and valleys, and that type of going through trials together helps to solidify and create a culture. And I think that's really one of the pretty special things about the Solana ecosystems. And they went through a lot of trials. And so that phrase is really kind of part and parcel of um what Solana OGs have gone through. And it kind of bandies them together. And I think that's pretty special. But I hear what you're saying. It is, know, everybody trying to build any new technology is really really hard and I have a huge amount of admiration for them. It's just I guess where we are at Xion is we we respect and admire all that hard work but actually we're just trying to break down every single barrier every single thing to make people... You can work with Solana. You know, this doesn't stop anybody wanting to do anything. It's just a way of getting your customers not to drop off. It's really that simple. You know, you're gonna build a new app. and you wouldn't want to lose 95 % of your customers, just build it on Xion. You know, can still run with Salon. It doesn't matter. know, we, we, this is what I tell what the really weird thing was, Peter, is it's not much hatred for Xion saying this, it'll probably all go horribly wrong, but it's like, you know, some of the people that wished me luck and that when I joined them were nice. They're just like, because I seem to feel we're doing it for the good of. the whole of blockchain and that sounds arrogant and it's not meant to be but we just use us you know we have no gas fees you just use anybody just drop us in there use it whatever you want to build and that's it and it work and then your customers will stay with you and you won't get those barriers in the way uh you know but yeah I love slant the one thing I say respect to slant They're bloody good at getting to market fast. They have one hell of a marketing engine. When NFTs, and we don't say that word, will really pop, you know, they open space in Hudson's yard. You know, they were there, you know, and they were first to understand meme coins. And I actually think meme coins got a really bad rap. I just think of them as Pokemon cards and collectibles. They're just fun, you know? We wouldn't want something named after them. Anyway, come on, you can do that. Let's go back to your restaurant example. think simplifying it at that level is really, I think it's pretty fascinating and it really helps to put things in perspective. um You wanna attract people to your restaurant um and you can attract them in various ways. How you treat them, uh maybe your menu, the price, the quality of the food. um But then how do you keep them coming back? oh The second part, think, one of the big challenges in our industry. I hesitate to say blockchain and crypto, because you might yell at me. we spent a lot of time on the acquisition part, but almost no time in how do we keep them? How do we retain them? Yeah. you in marketing eight times as much to get a customer to keep them. crazy isn't it and then we're always chasing the new one and if you look at the best ecosystems and communities and I do Kadaani you just give them that love you're always there for them you keep making them feel that they're involved in part of it and not taken for granted so let's say and I've never run a restaurant but I've been to a few so let's say I go in what do you do well then you update the menu you do limited edition ones you do special offers You do things that make these people that have been there from the start feel part of it. Now you could be a commodity like McDonald's and that's fine because there's its convenience. So it could be that you've got convenience change. You do not have to have the best and most cutting edge product that's out there, but it just has to be convenient. You you look at say some maybe like Coinbase, E-Toro even that Yarny's built. It's just like it's really easy to trade. It's a convenient product. It's a utility. Don't think about it as anything more than that. It's just something that makes it super easy as well. So I think you've got a really good point there is that we need within our industry to work on both. And I don't think at the moment we do either very well. I think we're probably better at retention. Once somebody comes in, we tend to keep them in a community generally, unless they're just there as farmers and going for TGE. But generally some of the bigger brands have amazing armies. Look at XRP, look at Solana, they've been through a lot and they stick with you. And I think the key to that is just talking to them. And they associate and they love their CEOs and their founders and they make time for them. I think Suey are good at this as well. And they're just there. It's like your best friend, you got a problem? Your friend is always there for you, you go and talk to them. And so I think there's a lot of, I think what blockchain, this is the ironic thing I've always thought about blockchain, apart from the word trustless for a couple, know, the most untrusted business in the world, and yet we talk about trust, is that we talk about we're for the people, we're human, and there's no brands out there that feature humanity. Not many of them act in a very humankind understanding personal way. The language we use is not human. And so we sort of... killing ourselves really and I think maybe um being an outsider, being from web two, building brands out there where you just know the power of certain phrases and words and how you behave and what you do is what it's missing. And a lot of times you're coming into a tech company and you don't understand tech, then you're not one of the gang. But actually... Yeah, you've got a good point there. I actually think our retention is very high in this space because we put so much emphasis on there. I think actually what we're not good at is getting people in the door of the restaurant. When they're in there, they'll stay there forever. But very few people know where it is. And in a way, want to a lot of brands want to keep that like that. You know, their communities are very, very protective of they want more people, but only if there are people. Mm-hmm. you know what I mean? It's a strange old business, Swiss one. I'm still getting to terms with it. Yeah, the I've spent a lot of time with uh developers recently. And um one one analogy or metaphor that I've heard used a lot in describing the Ethereum community versus other communities is this idea of the cathedral and the bizarre. It's a popular book. I'm sure you've you've heard of it or either read it and that um in that Ethereum is really the the the bizarre. It's it's a bunch of disparate disjointed stores, but for some reason it kind of works together. And then there's cathedral, which is, you know, very centrally designed. It's architected like perfectly. And it's central planning versus, you know, versus the bizarre. um You've used the phrase, you know, give your community love and there's, you don't necessarily see that in the Ethereum community. um you know, if you are a brand new developer in the Ethereum community, it's, you're kind of on your own and you know, you're, just up to you to read the documents. If you're a user of any application on Ethereum community or in, Ethereum, it's really up to the applications to be kind of user friendly. Um, and so given that set of affairs, um, where does love and you know, taking care of your users. Like how would you, I guess, what advice would you give Ethereum? I mean, it's where most people are just kind of on their own. That's their DNA. I wouldn't even try to change it. This is what I said at the start. It's their DNA. It's if you're this devotee and it's like being a monk or whatever and you're going to go and tread this path on your own with all these hardships that hopefully you get enlightenment. Great! And there are people that do that. And there are loads of people in the world that go through that. I can't change it because it's not true to their DNA. That's what they are. Yeah, it is what it is. You know, if you're a scientist, you'll go to Canada. If you want more marketing, energy and fun, you'll probably go to Solana. And so that's what I'm saying is like politicians. And I always think of marketing like politics and like propaganda. They very rarely do what's good for the people. They do what's good for the party and they change their policies to stay in power. And it's very rare that they will just stick to their guns, regardless of whether it keeps them in power. And one of the things actually that crypto is pretty good at sticking to its guns is like within its space, but you can't change it. It's like, can't. mean, I will be hopefully forever young and creative and a little bit non-technical and that. I'm not a technical person, know, and somebody that comes in at his is completely different. And you'll go, well, actually, Adam, you're not the marketeer for us. But Xion is because it's trying to take it web two, web three, and this mainstream. But you might go, actually, Adam, you don't know the full details of this white paper that Vitalik wrote three years ago. And I go, no, I don't. It's not for me. And so that's what I'm saying. You can't change your DNA, your character. This is what the beauty of podcasts like Joe Rogan is. It's like interrogation. know, three hours with Joe, your character will come out. It's very, very hard to act for that long, like a talk with you. Eventually, if I had tried to start in this off talking technical, within 10 minutes, you would have found a breakdown. You know, I'm a marketeer and I'm creative and that's what I do. And I try and make the complex simple. And so back to your thing on Ethereum, that's the path that you choose. You want to be a Buddhist or you want to go clubbing in Thailand? It's up to you, mate. You know, both of them will make you happy. It just depends what you want to do. Part of the sense I'm getting from you is um the way you explain things tells me that storytelling is quite important to you um and is kind of part of who you are. uh Tell me more about storytelling and how you think uh projects in our space could use more of that. Make it human. I mean, that sounds terrible, but make it... Wake up in the morning, Peter, and everything from the moment you get up and you put your PJs on or take your PJs off or use your facial rub and then you go get your favourite cup of coffee and then you want a message in that and just think about where blockchain or the product you're building could come in there. It doesn't have to be in there all the time, you know, or you want to book some tickets to see Taylor or 21 Pilots, as I say to Anthony, my favourite band, he knows them. and you want to buy tickets but you don't want to be ripped off and you want to get home or you want to find out that the babysitter for your children is going to be there on time or whatever it might be. That's how you look at it and you bring it into every day and you don't make it too complicated. mean you might have seen, did you see that we put a bid in for the Fyre Festival? Okay, we put a bid in for the Fyre Festival, 200 grand and it can go higher. It's like Fyre Festival and everyone's going, what the F? Eh. the fire? Why you done that? Are you stupid? It was the biggest fire up ever. Okay? But we're a brand which has burning in it. But why not take the worst thing and the worst experience anyone's had as a festival and we'll make it run properly. So the bands will turn up. Your ticketing will be seamless. Your yurt, your Winnebago, your tent, your toilet, your water, your goji berry face rub, whatever it is, your llama bread. head massage will be there and we will show you how it will run properly. That's why we're doing it. So there's a real example. So you think, I mean in the UK we have Glastonbury. You heard of Glastonbury? You Glastonbury? Massive, massive festival. You you spend like seven years queuing up and then it says refresh and you can't buy a ticket and it's like for some people it's their holiday of the year. They'll spend all their money. You don't want that to screw up. Blockchain? make that happen and it can make it easy for you to book all these things and check it. That's why we're doing it. So coming back to the storytelling thing, it's like we're trying to take the worst thing there and someone says it's just a joke. No, we're serious about this and we'll make it into the best that possibly could be because for everybody else in the world, go into a concert, go into a football match, go into anything where you take your families and your friends who you're safe for is really important. So if we can make it so you can trust, it really comes, can you trust it? You know, so It is storytelling and it is trying to it's just trying to make it human. You know, look we all use the example of Jobs when he said 10 000 songs in your pocket versus the most powerful most powerful and variable mp3 player Yeah It's a classic example and you can go back whether you whether you love or hated steve jobs He said some brilliant things and that's probably it, you know 10 000 songs in your pocket versus the best made it real Made it made it real and practical to you Yeah. And I think that's where storytelling comes in. And yeah, people, yeah. example. mean, most crypto projects, they err on the most sophisticated MP3 player in the world with these widgets and that widget and whatever versus 10,000 songs in your pocket. It's just such an excellent example. Yeah, and it's hard to get there. You know, it's hard, you know, to think it through and to do that. But that's where you just, you should start from, you know, imagine, you know, just build apps you can trust, you know, just build something people can trust, even if you just use that word, you know, the world is full of fake things, you know, so why, you know, it could verify. In theory, blockchain could mean that everything you brought off ePay was genuine. know, after drugs and people trafficking, forgery is the biggest illegal industry in the world. Wipe it out. So whether that is a pair of Nike trainers or whether that's a Chanel and Hermes bag, it doesn't matter. That's where the, because the people, you work hard to save your money up to buy a pair of Nikes. or a Mays Bagwell, you work hard after the government's texture to hell to get it. So that's where it brings it in real. And there's value in that, that nobody really tells that story. So storytelling is really important. To go back, it's when Peter wakes up in the morning and he gets his cup of coffee and he's very happy and he wants to know where it comes. You can take more serious examples like where did your drugs come from? I don't mean the drugs are illegal but I mean your pharmaceuticals and stuff like that, you know? Because I brought them on the internet, they must be good. Yeah, right. You know? Well, Adam, this has been such an enjoyable conversation. I think it's, to a phrase you used earlier, kind of a return to, you didn't say return to fundamentals, but I think you said return to reality. Yeah. Well let's put the fun in it. Let's put a return to fundamentals. This is my favourite quote. leave you with this. There's a guy called Jerry De La Femina. Classic Madison Avenue madman. And he said about advertising, it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on. And if you're not, you're doing it wrong. You just are. And that's what I love about the guys at Xion. They're crazy, they're creative, they're fun, they're open. So you talk about culture. My experience so far has just been really lovely to work with. Really nice, really creative. I'm trying to get the sense of humour right. uh So there's sort of the New York humour versus the English humour. I'm just trying to figure that one out. uh Of course, it was an absolute pleasure and thank you for making me feel so welcome and hopefully there's at least 10 seconds that you can cut into a podcast. Absolutely. All right, cheers. You take care of yourself. Bye bye.