Welcome back to the show. Today we have Matt Mudano from Arch Network. Welcome Matt. Appreciate it Peter, thanks for having me. So Matt is the co-founder and CEO of Arch. uh Matt, tell us a little bit about Arch Network. Like, what problem are you guys uh aiming to solve and how are you doing it? So first of all, Arch uh is a new type of execution platform, uh brand new technology, new VM, new consensus. And all of this was specifically designed to tailor for Bitcoin architecture. If we're talking about the different types of VMs that can support execution out there, we're talking about the EVM or the SVM more recently. None of these execution environments really have any understanding or uh knowledge of what's happening in the Bitcoin mempool. They can't construct Bitcoin transactions. They can't sign Bitcoin transactions. So the only way historically to do Bitcoin DeFi is to bridge to somewhere else and then do execution there and then bridge back. But historically speaking, you know, there's been the option to bridge your Bitcoin to Ethereum, to other EVML2s and to Solana. you know, they failed to ultimately get a meaningful amount of liquidity bridged over, I think, like less than 1 % of Bitcoin's total market cap. has been bridged to Ethereum chains. ah And that kind of goes to show you how uh unwilling Bitcoin holders are to make that leap of faith or to take on that bridge risk. Because ultimately people that hold Bitcoin, appreciate the sovereignty of their assets and they don't want to give up their keys in exchange for more risk. So ultimately we started with the approach that If it starts with bridging and then works its way to programmability, that's probably a non-starter. We wanted to allow for more native programmability on Bitcoin, and for that we had to create some interesting new technology, and that's what we did. Got it. So we've had a number of Bitcoin BTC projects on this show. We've had Lombards, Atreya, a couple of Babylon and others too. And I think everybody recognizes the opportunity of like it's it's literally like multiple billions of dollars in opportunity if if even just like some of these Bitcoin whales allocated just, you know, maybe one percent of their wealth into DeFi. BTC-Fi, that could potentially, just that alone is uh probably larger than all of the DeFi capital in uh other networks today, cumulatively. m So the opportunity is huge. But each of these projects is approaching BTC-Fi in a different way. And I think they all recognize the problem with uh Bitcoin, the lack of programmability in Bitcoin. m And so would be curious to, if you could maybe walk us through kind of the, what is the problem? um Like why is it so hard? And tell us about the architecture of Arch and how you guys are doing it and maybe compare it to, I don't know, uh maybe like a near competitor of yours. Yeah, no, I guess the lay of the land in um the Bitcoin DeFi space and we're taking the broader Ethereum and Solana ecosystem out of it is you've got, I think the first uh L2 on Bitcoin was with Stacks. They came around a few years ago and kind of paved the way with a more modular approach where you bridge into their ecosystem and you can do more smart contract type things there. uh Then with the advent of the Tapered upgrade and there's a lot more opportunity to build things natively on Bitcoin like these bridges, uh Opcat potentially to do for BitVM, to do trustless bridging to these L2s. You got a bunch of these EVM roll-ups, uh pop-up like Merlin, Bob, Botanix, Etre, as you mentioned. And that really is... uh predicated in the same type of modular approach in the Ethereum space, right? Where you have these L2s that can do more things than the base layer. The difference being is that the EVM already has programmability in a turn and complete way and Bitcoin does not. Your original question is what are the challenges to build more programmability natively on Bitcoin? The challenge is Bitcoin prioritizes different things than Ethereum optimized for when it first came around with the EVM. They prioritize security and uptime. over expressivity and programmability and turn completeness. And that was an important thing because Bitcoin obviously became a perfect form of money because of its ability to be totally secure and non-sensorable. uh And so that was an intentional design choice by Bitcoin way back in the day when they first was created. And you even see the lack of willingness from the core community on Bitcoin to try to, you implement some of these feature upgrades because of the risks that are ultimately uh presented when you make some of these feature upgrades. You also have a lack of a sophisticated and expressive programmability language. You have Bitcoin script, which is a non-turning complete language instead of solidity. In uh a nutshell, the developer experience is very, very restrictive. It's very difficult to do things that are more complicated on Bitcoin that we've all come familiar with in DeFi, uh through oh Uniswap, Aave, Curve, and the list goes on. So those types of more complicated computations and smart contracts are just not possible on Bitcoin. But fast forward here, more recently, we had the Tapered upgrade, we had Ordinals, which now allows us to put arbitrary data on Bitcoin for the first time. And that is really kind of a primitive to programmability. What we ultimately did that was uniquely different was we built a VM from scratch that ultimately allows us to harness the ability to store data on Bitcoin uh and make it more programmable and expressive. Of course, in some cases, it's not totally trustless in the Bitcoin sense of the word, but we can still do things that ultimately settle, smart contracts settle on Bitcoin. uh There are some trustless applications in our network, like an AMM, the first ever AMM that's truly trustless on the base layer. And uh ultimately that's going to create a more dynamic fee market for Bitcoin and strengthen the economics for miners, which is a very, very important discussion that needs to be had. Because as you see right now, we've been teetering around all time high price with Bitcoin, but we're at pretty much all time low fees for miners, which is a problem. We need to make sure that we strengthen those economics and secure uh the economic security of Bitcoin and the security budget. Yeah, when the ordinals kind of boom came around, I mean, it really increased the fees for miners and many of them made a lot of money. But there was still a lot of like from a almost like a religious perspective, like some miners, even though they were making more money and others in the community, I think they almost had a, they didn't quite know. I think there was a lot of mixed feelings around that. Like, is this the right thing to be doing? Is this like in the spirit of Bitcoin? ah even though they're making more money. ah Do you still kind of see that, ah I don't know, that kind of attitude in the Bitcoin kind of community? think you see it still a little bit. And largely, I think the reason why you still have some holdouts is because we're still not quite there where the fee market, I mean, I'm sorry, the rewards, the block subsidy rewards are so low and reduced as a result of these halving cycles so that miners cannot be profitable. We're almost there. We're one or two more halving cycles. And it's going to be very, very difficult to see a world where uh you know, these miners can remain profitable unless Bitcoin continues to go up and up and up forever, which it probably will. But at the same time, we need to come up with a more creative approach that doesn't necessarily change underlying Bitcoin, but it can allow for a more dynamic fee market so that miners can be profitable. The biggest knock on proof of work chains is that over a long enough time horizon, it becomes more more centralized. If the smaller and medium sized miners continue to lose money, They're not going to mind Bitcoin anymore. And that makes the chain more centralized. There's public mining companies that can continue hemorrhaging money forever if they really want to. that's ah OK for them. But what does that mean for Bitcoin if we only have six miners or 10 miners or something like that that can stick around and secure the chain? It doesn't make it ah attractive for the same reasons why people got involved to begin with. So we have to do more at the base layer and drive more fees to the miners. And as you mentioned with the ordinals boom and runes to follow and some of these other meta protocols, that is absolutely driving more revenue to the miners. And but still in retrospect, like out of out of the two, you know, the two types of revenue for those miners really have a much, much lower amount in in fees paid by transactions than the block subsidy reward. So we need to bring more defy capabilities to Bitcoin so that ultimately we can create more of these. know, high revenue opportunities. Yeah, you mentioned meta protocol. m Could you maybe help define that for us? um Because I don't think, you know, there are some audience members that may not know what that means. Maybe they're not very familiar with the Bitcoin space and um how Arch, you know, the architecture of Arch, can it be described as a meta protocol or maybe taking advantage of like the architecture of meta protocols like Ordinals and Runes? Yeah, mean, a meta protocol, more specifically Bitcoin meta protocol, as a protocol or framework that's built on top of the Bitcoin base layer, and it uses Bitcoin transactions and data structures to add new types of functionality, but they're kind of specialized functionality. It's not like a total general purpose, uh you know, with consensus rules and things of that nature. And you typically need some type of indexer ah that, you know, allows you to kind of put on these augmented reality glasses. within the Bitcoin ecosystem and kind of open up this new use case or new world. So think of it as sort of like a layer above Bitcoin that uses existing infrastructure like the UTXO model and Bitcoin script and the OpReturn fields to create new kinds of assets or new types of data and logic. And we've seen that with BRC 20, we've seen that with Runes, we've seen that with a few other meta protocols that are trying to bring more programmability to the base layer. And I wouldn't necessarily... called um Arch a meta protocol because we have our own data availability, we have our own consensus, we've got our own blocks ah as a layer one blockchain actually. It's just the difference from Arch and all other uh Bitcoin chains is that first of all, we have our own VM that is specifically designed for Bitcoin as I said, and that's what can actually do these interesting things like constructing Bitcoin transactions and signing Bitcoin transactions. And that's how we actually can do more programmable things, but ultimately make Bitcoin the settlement layer for financial applications. uh So while meta protocols certainly do address the problem at hand by doing more things with the base layer, they're still limited in their scope oh and not entirely scalable as well. Yeah. So as a layer one, I'm assuming that your primary customer are developers, like builders that you want to build, that want to build on Arch. Got it. trying to make the developer experience to build financial applications and new use cases on Bitcoin very seamless. You know, I think that the one thing that still allows Ethereum to have some sort of a moat, you know, or a network effect is the fact that Solidity and all of the open source smart contracts that have been, you know, bulletproofed and audited over the last, you know, six, seven years. it's very tried and true, right? So people are comfortable using that and the developer experience is quite easy. uh Combine that with advancements in AI and it's very, very simple for developers to get started in the Ethereum ecosystem. Solana, same thing. They've had the benefit of uh five years worth of perfecting their tooling and guides and tutorials and different things like that. Anchor, which is an abstraction framework, they didn't have that on day one. How do you actually create a more seamless experience for developers? It takes time, especially if you're a new layer one chain. ah But when you think about it in terms of Bitcoin and the limitations that developers face and the challenges of using Bitcoin script and it's non-turning complete language, it's a complete different ballgame from other programmable chains. So that's really what we're trying to focus on is give developers the tools and arm them with the... the necessary pieces so that they can actually build use cases that people actually want to use. And how is that going? What's the go-to-market like to attract developers, bring awareness to developers about Arch Network and then getting them to uh incentivizing or encouraging them to build on Arch? Yeah, it's kind of multifaceted in our approach. Obviously, we've had an organic community that's formed as a result of some pretty high-signal funding rounds, which helps us from a go-to-market perspective in trying to nerd-snipe some quality developers into our ecosystem. But there's still a challenge, right? Because sometimes it's difficult to convince developers to put in more effort than just copy and pasting something into a new chain. For the ones that we are able to essentially convince on our vision, I think that they understand that this is uniquely different. As I mentioned before, less than 1 % of Bitcoin has actually been bridged over to Ethereum. So asking Bitcoiners to now bridge to a totally new and nascent EVM Bitcoin L2 with not a mature DeFi ecosystem. And it's basically the same exact trust assumptions that you get on other Ethereum chains like base or optimism, arbitrum, et cetera. Like it's kind of a non-starter for those ones as well. So where they're going to have much better of a chance when I say they, the EVML2s on Bitcoin, they might have a better chance at getting developers to copy and paste these low effort builds into their ecosystem. But at the same time, they're going to have a much harder time getting liquidity providers to bridge into their network. So that's where we really have an advantage because we can tap into the native liquidity that exists on Bitcoin today. all of the hundreds of billions of dollars that are on chain on Bitcoin, not in cold storage, not at custodians and exchanges. And as you mentioned, it's a tremendous opportunity to unlock that DeFi opportunity. We view it as a $400 billion opportunity. And if you want to be able to tap into that native liquidity without the friction that Bitcoiners have already shown that they're unwilling to accept, you have to do it in a different way. And sometimes that takes a little bit more effort and more time to build out these applications. We might not have 80 to 100 apps in our ecosystem on day one like another EVM ecosystem would, but the use cases and applications that will be available are going to be well thought out, and they are solid use cases that took the user experience into account uh when building these things out. Yeah, that's pretty exciting. How are you getting access to all that liquidity? I imagine it's, when I think of like a DeFi application, it's some kind of smart contract that you interact with and then you receive some kind of, ah I don't know, like a receipt token so you can start getting yield from it. Like, how does that work with Arch? Maybe walk us through, like, if I were a user and there was an application built on the Arch layer one, Like, how would I interact? Yeah, it really depends on how the developer chooses. And that's another kind of advantage that we have with this VM that we built is we give developers the flexibility and to choose how they want the user experience to be. uh Obviously, layer one Bitcoin will be bottlenecked eventually. So depending on how much speed and performance you really want and how much trust assumptions that they want to ask their users to make, we give them all of those options. So they're not imposed one type of way. ah But what's really interesting is we have the ability to, like I mentioned before, tap into the native liquidity and offer a trustless experience without having to bridge first. So we haven't just abstracted the bridge away. We've actually built a native programmability type of approach where without having to bridge or wrap your assets in a wrapper of some kind, you can actually do smart contracts on Bitcoin. So I'll walk you through kind of an example in our ecosystem of how that works. So from the front end of a AMM, let's say Saturn, which is, as I mentioned, the first ever AMM, trustless AMM on Bitcoin, the base layer. When you interact with the front end, you click like swap. I want to swap this amount of Bitcoin for this amount of stablecoins. What ultimately is happening under the hood is the ArchVM is constructing a Bitcoin transaction, a partially signed Bitcoin transaction called a PSPT, that is saying, I am only willing to swap this amount of Bitcoin for this amount of stablecoins. And Bitcoin ultimately enforces that. So for the taker side, there's makers and takers in the decks. The liquidity providers are the ones that take on smart contract risks similar to like on Uniswap on Ethereum. You trust the validators of the Ethereum network to honor the rules of the smart contract, right? So in that case, the liquidity providers are making some arch trust assumptions by putting and delegating their liquidity into the pool. But the takers of that liquidity don't make any trust assumptions on at all. They're just trusting Bitcoin to enforce their partially signed Bitcoin transaction. So they're signing one half saying, okay, I'm going to put up this amount of Bitcoin and then the network of liquidity providers and the validators fill the other part of that trade. But for the taker, know, it's like I said, it's a completely trustless experience, which is very different than anything else that's out there that requires you to either bridge first or use an order book. An order book obviously is not, you know, it's not the same liquidity profile. uh as an AMM does. having a pool-based architecture for Bitcoin DeFi is actually a huge advancement in liquidity profile of fungibles. Yeah. Under the hood, maybe take us under the hood of like, what is the UTXO architecture looks like? I imagine like when you say like a partial, you know, a swap of partial Bitcoin, like it has to go through the UTXO thing, right? Yeah, mean, a lot of people that are more in the programmable chains like that have been around since the 2017 or 2020 cycles. They're well familiar with the account model, which I like to compare the UTXO model and the account model. It's kind of like using cash versus a debit card. If you go into a convenience store and you want to buy a Gatorade and it's $1.50, unless you have the exact $1.50 on you and you give them a $5 bill, they have to give you back some change. But if you swipe a debit card, it deducts the exact amount from your bank account. So I think that's a fair comparison when looking at the UTXO model versus the account model where there's a little bit more friction and complexity when it comes to using cash versus the convenience of a debit card. But the UTXO model also lends really well to a lot of the things that we mentioned before, which is more secure chain and so on and so forth. I think... um You know, it's very challenging to build around the UTXO model when you're trying to do more of these advanced uh programmable applications. uh But that being said, that's the point. That's why we need to build more uh novel technology because the EVM and the SVM doesn't know what a UTXO is. They can't handle UTXOs. They can only handle wrapped versions of them in the ERC-20 token standard or an SPL token standard. If we're trying to do more native things by using Bitcoin wallets, Bitcoin indexers, and do more things like that are native to Bitcoin, we have to build infrastructure that can support the UTXOs in the existing framework that exist. Yeah. With other BTC5 projects that I've spoken with, uh we spent a lot of time on the BD side, where uh the project itself spends time with investors and early miners and other Bitcoin whales to help provide liquidity for the project. ah Is that something that Arch also needs to do in order to attract uh users to come over and use the apps on top of Arch? I think it's like a yes and no. I would say that we have the unique ability to tap into the native liquidity that exists on chain. And that's very powerful because there's more liquidity on Bitcoin than any other chain in existence. And we're taking out a cold store, we're taking out ETFs, we're taking out centralized exchanges off the board, and we still have so much more liquidity that is just lying dormant. So that's not necessarily a good thing. We need to make that liquidity productive. But you know there there is something to be said for capital allocators and liquidity providers that want to support DeFi You know you have a lot of liquid funds that want to be liquidity providers and money markets and they want to you know Provide stable coins to be borrowed against some of these some of these assets. So while we don't require Any new liquidity to be bridged like a new network usually does need from day one We do have other requirements that we will need in order to make the whole DeFi ecosystem make sense and have this feedback loop. We're not really talking about these Ponzi emission games where that's the yield. We're actually trying to figure out how can we get sustainable yield for Bitcoin by using DeFi constructs that we've seen be built before. We have the playbook to follow. We've seen this happen now, two different cycles between Ethereum and Solana and all the other modular. chains on Ethereum. And so we know what DeFi looks like, we know what the soup tastes like and how to make it. Now we just need to, you know, first of all, build the infrastructure that can support it. ah And then we can map incentives to making sure that, you know, these liquidity providers that are essential to supporting the rest of it, you know, the rest of the DeFi ecosystem so that we can do like borrow against your Bitcoin, use that, stable coins for yields. So you don't have to necessarily leave your Bitcoin in order to get yield, but You know, it's not going to be rooted in these inflationary emissions and bribes that ultimately run out. That's not a sustainable playbook. We need to figure out ways where we can not only do something that's sustainable, but also something that's scalable, right? You can't necessarily drive $10 billion into an inflationary type of environment that needs these incentives in order to make yield attractive enough. So that's why we're working with lot of institutions and RWA asset managers and issuers so that we can create that more sustainable yield model for Bitcoin holders. And obviously with TradFi, that's trillions of dollars in assets that can scale infinitely as far as Bitcoin is concerned. So that's a slightly different approach that we're taking right now is trying to match the amount of demand for yield from Bitcoin um with the proven tried and true proven, know, TradFi assets that can actually produce yield like, know, like treasuries, private credit, reinsurance, that kind of stuff. You mentioned RWA. Maybe take us through uh how asset issuers and players in the RWA space would work with Arch Network. Yeah, so there's a few applications that are focused on specifically that are working directly with institutions and asset managers to bring their yield products on chain. uh The tokenization wave is absolutely coming. It's been kind of premature for the last few years because there hasn't really existed enough liquidity to really match with uh these on-chain assets. But you're starting to see these things like tokenized funds, real estate, gold, private credit, reinsurance, uh and treasury bills uh brought on-chain because I think that a lot of people have become a little bit wary of this inflationary game. You we come into a new ecosystem, they have a bunch of incentives, those incentives stick around for three to six months, and as soon as they dry up, the liquidity goes to the next chain, it starts farming that one. You that's not exactly a sustainable ecosystem model. And in order to make that, you know, that scalable, you know, yield system or DeFi construct, uh absolutely scalable and sustainable, you need to bring in some assets that actually can scale with the chain itself. So I think that's where RWA certainly comes in and it's an exciting wave to be a part of because whereas on Ethereum and Solana, the hurdle rate for a lot of these liquid funds is much, much higher because they're farming these tokens, they're looping, they're doing those types of things, but the competition for the same type of yield on Bitcoin is far less. We're talking to many DATs and federal pension funds and publicly traded companies that have Bitcoin on their balance sheet and they're looking for just like something like 2 or 3 % on their Bitcoin because they absolutely cannot justify having an asset on their balance sheet that isn't productive. So I think we're starting to see the pendulum swing in sort of the Bitcoin DeFi direction because, you know, rather than having these Bitcoin Maxis that want to just hold Bitcoin forever and do nothing with it, now people are starting to say, OK, how can we make this asset more productive? And institutions are definitely starting to adopt Bitcoin more and more and more. And those institutions need to make their assets productive. um That sounds really, really interesting. Can you take us through a specific use case? I think you've shared one with an institution that has Bitcoin on their balance sheet, but they need it to be productive, but they don't want to take a ton of risk either. And so they work with Arch Network to m earn some yield on that Bitcoin, so it is productive. um Any other use cases in the RWA space that you could share without naming any clients or customers or partners, but kind of generally? Yeah, there's a really, really great app that's popping up in our ecosystem. They just filled around, so there's gonna be some PR about them here pretty soon. It's called Honeybee, and this is a team of TradFi experts that are really trying to match institutional yield with institutional Bitcoin. uh And what that ultimately means is they're partnering with all these asset managers like the Wellingtons of the world, KKR, Fidelity, Franklin Templeton, et cetera. And they have all these different... structured products and structured notes and bonds that they want to sell. And there's a tremendous amount of liquidity and demand for that yield on Bitcoin. So what we're trying to do there is build a platform and a marketplace that allows them to bring their Bitcoin into this marketplace, borrow against it at safe LTV rates, which will pull some stable coins out. And those stable coins can go directly into these yield generating RWA assets. uh In Honeybee's case, the first core product that they'll have is sort of a diversified fund of uh RWA products like treasuries, reinsurance, private credit, mezzanine debt, and they are curating that portfolio. But long term, they'll be partnering with other curators of strategies that say, I can beat that rate of return with my own pay fine network product or my own reinsurance product. And then that will turn itself into sort of this like pendle of RWA where people can now go and arbitrage the private credit markets. You can go and take the borrow rate on the lending markets and go and decide which RWA assets are most aligned to your strategy as a liquidity provider and target some rate of return. uh Add in the composability and capital efficiency of DeFi. Now you can actually do more interesting things. It's not just a walled garden like we've seen with some other private chains in the RWA world. You can do looping. You can even borrow against the derivative asset that is earning yield and you can continue to try to get more capital efficiency out of your asset. So I think it's very exciting because this is really what's going to kickstart the TVL, more importantly, sticky TVL that isn't necessarily there to farm. know, tokens and emissions, even though there will be incentives, but the incentives will be used, you know, to make sure that the depth of liquidity in the decks that supports liquidations in the money market lowers the borrow rate of those stable coins. So it reduces the hurdle rate uh and ultimately can achieve higher yield. But those are the, you know, the things that incentives should be used for, not just paying people to hold the token or bring idle liquidity to the chain. got it. So the this application honeybee, I mean, it sounds like a like a two sided market, right? There's the retail side. And then there's also the side where they are. They have some kind of integration or partnership with, uh you know, large institutions like Wellington, like you mentioned. um What is the role of the on the retail side? um These are just people that have Bitcoin, they want some, you know, some yield. Like, what is the I guess what else is the maybe describe like the characteristics of the retail customer. Yeah, a lot of these institutional products are very gated in nature or held behind the limitations of what retail can't necessarily get over, which is higher check sizes. You need some type of asset manager or intermediary that can bring these products to an institution or a high net worth individual. So historically speaking, a lot of these higher yielding products are not available to retail. uh And they're left with just deciding, like, how do I earn some higher yield and defy through a little bit more risk and things of that nature. So I think what's really interesting from a retail perspective is even though this product was initially built for institutions, it's going to be made accessible to retail so they can get exposure to some of these RWA assets that have been historically hard to get exposure to. And then from there, they can take on a little bit more risk to chase some higher yields, like looping mechanisms and taking on a little bit more of a riskier LTV borrow than what institutions are probably comfortable with. What will ultimately follow that is hedge products that people can hedge their risk, like liquidation risk and doing more things that hedge their downside in the case where there's a black swan event or if they want to take on uh the most possible risk, degen risk, there's ways that they can hedge the downside there. So that would be much more of a retail-facing product as opposed to institutions who are much more conservative in their approach and also conservative in their expectations for yield. But ultimately what I think is really really interesting is that we're bringing the global, you know private credit world on chain which is a huge huge market and Bitcoin is the only one that has the scale and distribution and adoption to really backstop that demand so You know turning Bitcoin into the world's financial settlement layer is really what we're set out to do and very passionate about that but we're we're kind of calculating the approach starting with you know, some of these products that can scale quickly and scale up without necessarily being risky or degen. But that being said, there's plenty of different use cases in the ecosystem that is not institutional focused as well. It's more the stuff that you would expect to see in a new programmable ecosystem like launch pads, prediction markets, perp specs, borrow land, and everything that I mentioned before. ah It's very exciting to see all this stuff come together, but we think that between Honeybee and Attara, the native money market, and Saturn, the native AMM and Dex, those are gonna be the three-headed monsters of our initial rollout, and they all fit together in a very programmable and composable way. That's really cool. um I've been speaking with a lot of perps dexes recently. And one kind of trend that I'm seeing is kind of a verticalization uh of services. so most of the perps dexes really just start out as a perps dex. And then some are adding spot. And then I'm seeing some adding borrow and lend now. And I was actually talking to a perps dex the other day and um He mentioned this without me prompting anything. He said that I wish I could deposit my Bitcoin and then borrow stables against it and then in the same transaction be able to uh make a bet on the perps dex and then close their position and then get their Bitcoin back. And I thought, wow, that would be so cool. I wonder who's doing that. And right now no one is. But that kind of use case would be would be amazing. I think that kind of use case would, take off as a huge product. Yeah, there definitely is someone building it. It's just not live yet. But you're spot on. think that doing these types of things where you can stack more Bitcoin, stack more Sats as a result of a profitable trade or speculation without necessarily having to do 10 different steps in order to realize the potential of that trade. I think that that is that's the name of the game. That is what ultimately I enjoy doing. I do this on Polymarket. but I have to do it through all these different steps as well. know, do it on hyperliquid where I have to bridge my Bitcoin to Arbitrum, I have to borrow against my Bitcoin on Morpho, I have to take those stablecoins into Polymarket or hyperliquid, and I do my trading, then I have to unwind everything just to go all the way back to Bitcoin where I'm nice, safe, and secure. You know, and every step along the way there's fees, there's possible taxable events, and that's a non-starter for a lot of people, right? ah If we go back to the early days of perp stacks actually at bitmex that was all done with Bitcoin, right? There wasn't even stable coins yet now all the stable all the perp stacks are dominated by stable coins, but at the same time, know being able to Leverage your Bitcoin liquidity that you don't want to sell in order to actually get some speculative upside I think that that is uh everything to a lot of these Bitcoin holders who want to stack more sats Yeah, and as a retail product, I think that would totally take off. ah But market makers would be interested in that and institutions, uh huge, huge market, I think for that specific use case. Yep, absolutely. We're excited about that. Yeah. So fast forward, let's say six to 12 months, if everything goes right, the way you expect it to and want it to, uh what will Arch Network look like in 12 months? I think you'll see like a vibrant ecosystem of developers, liquidity providers, and of course traders that are taking full advantage of the capital efficiency and composability and performance that the chain can provide. We're gonna be doing a lot of stuff in the payments world, a lot of stuff in the RWA world, gaming. There's all these different use cases and verticals that Bitcoin can be the center of focus for. And it brings in the question, what is the point of all these other programmable chains if we could do all this programmability and DeFi natively on Bitcoin? So that's really what we're setting out to do. And I think that it's going to take us a little bit of time to get there, of course. But in 12 months, I think that you're going to see a fully mature and developed DeFi ecosystem, gaming ecosystem, payment network, NEO banks. virtual debit cards and wallets where you can either borrow or spend your Bitcoin in any type of way that it was previously unattainable. And that's the exciting challenge that we felt was the biggest opportunity of this and next cycle. Well, Matt, that sounds super exciting. And I look forward to you guys executing. um I would definitely become a participant in Arch Network as you guys have kind of grow the ecosystem to have more applications that would cater to noobs like me. I'm looking forward to it. Awesome. Well, I appreciate you taking the time. Is there anything that you want to talk about that we haven't talked about yet? I would say that, you know, if you haven't, you know, followed Arch and followed what the stuff that we're doing, especially the applications who have been diligently working, you know, trying to get their applications ready for Maynet over the last year and a half, I think, you know, give us a follow on Twitter, follow those projects, you know, explore the ecosystem and get ready for, you know, some wealth creation events in the ecosystem, right? Like this is, you know, DeFi summer 2.0 type of opportunity. If everyone remembers all the airdrops that came as a result of new protocols, new blue chip type of applications in the Ethereum landscape. We're not working with all of these, the Ethereum incumbents, so to speak. We're working with totally new applications. And by the way, these teams are absolutely amazing. For the money market, these guys are intimate understanding of risk management liquidations because they come from that world. The native decks are really good Solana builders who oh took the technology and really ran with it and decided we wanted to build something that was truly special and different and difficult. And as I mentioned with the honeybee guys, these guys are absolute pros in the TradFi world. that's the theme with all of the apps in the ecosystem. We went for quality over quantity. And all of them have bought into the vision of what we're trying to do together. That's awesome. getting those professionals with those kinds of backgrounds into the crypto space is uh just a net positive for crypto in general. Absolutely. oh And we are excited for what Arch Network is doing and what you guys have coming up. And I'll be sure to share everything in the show notes so that people can learn more and participate. Appreciate it Peter, thanks for having me on. Thank you.