We're rolling. Welcome Josie Leung from Milky Way. How are doing? Good, good, good. Thank you Peter for having me here. It's also the second day of Lunar New Year, so happy Lunar New Year to the folks who celebrate. Yeah, happy Chinese New Year to everybody. That's great. Are you based in, I guess, where are you based out of? actually so it's pretty big over here yeah we celebrate all all festivities we're very lucky in that sense That's fun. I grew up in the Philippines and whenever there's the, you know, for every Chinese New Year, was always a huge party for like a whole month. That's great. Yeah, I think Filipinos tend to extend it. That's great. Before we get into Milky Way, I have a lot of really, think Milky Way is a really interesting protocol. But before we get into it, I'd love to hear about your your background, how you got into crypto and like what keeps you in crypto? Like what is still interesting to you? Sure. So I, for me personally, I'm from Hong Kong. So I... Started my career actually in traditional Web2 side. So was doing CorpDev at LinkedIn. Really love it. It's an amazing company. Was there when Microsoft went through the acquisition with it. But after spending some time there, of selling services that, know, killer services that other people have built, I thought it'd be really fun to be on the building side, right? And then so I decided to do the switch from... service selling to on the building site. And then I was thinking, you know, okay, what product lines am I passionate about? And this was in 2020. It was still in the bear market. It was before DeFi summer. But I was interested in trading just, you know, on Binance, you know, just buying Bitcoin and Ethereum. It was fun. And then so my friend who was actually working as a product manager at Crypto.com back then was like, hey, you want to switch to product? We're hiring. It's also bear market back then. it's like, as long as you're smart, basically, we'll hire you. And then so I was like, okay, I like the product, you know, I like the platform. And I also believe, you know, in bringing sovereign rights and freedom. And so that's why I joined crypto.com and then I joined there and then joined their product team. And then afterwards, DeFi Summer happened. And then everyone, every exchange, it just basically scrambled to launch their own layer one chain, right? And was like, oh, we need to into the DeFi space. And then so I was looking into it. It's like, okay, how do we launch our own chain? Like what are the best tech stacks? And that's when I did a deep dive into a Tendermint and the consensus system. And then that's when I was like, hmm, that's a lot more. interesting than Essential X Exchange, which is very much copy, paste, and I've tried to in a way. so Tendermint was also hiring their first retail product manager. And so that's when I did the switch over to Tendermint and was very lucky. That's where I met my two existing co-founders at Milky Way. And then afterwards basically, Celestia launched and then we decided to launch Milky Way. can share more about that later, but that's how I joined into the DeFi infrastructure space and been there ever since. That's great. Now, as a founder of a protocol, what are some key learnings you bring with you from your time at crypto.com? I'm sure there's probably a lot of things that you learned along the way that's helped you as an entrepreneur. Yeah, totally. So I think I'm really lucky in the sense that I've had the kind of rare cross section. of being on the product side, like the tech team side, and also having worked at LinkedIn, where it's completely non-technical as well. So what I've noticed is there's a lot of tech founder mentality, where it's more... It's more about, you know, like kind of delivering, but less about, you know, the product market fit per se. Or there can be a lot of like, you know, kind of business, uh, fundamental mentality where it's a lot of talk and then less of the walk. Uh, and then, so for, for me, I think it's really lucky in the sense that I've experienced working at both sides. Um, And that's why when, now that I'm a co-founder, it's a lot better for me to understand that, okay, it takes time to deliver and ship products as well. It's not just that we can have constantly changing roadmap. It doesn't work that way, right? It's all like we have a thought process and then the team will deliver. It takes time to come up with the architecture, work it out with partners and then build it and then test it and audit, et cetera, et cetera. And so I'm very familiar in terms of how that part is done. And so it works a lot when I'm talking with external parties or even internally right now to really know how to craft the roadmap in a more realistic manner, per se. And I think that's actually something that we got really nice feedback from with partners as well. It's really nice working with you guys in terms of managing expectations and whatnot. Yeah, it Milky Way seems like a team that that focuses on shipping. And in the research that I've done, it's you guys have have a roadmap you've shipped. And I really love the look and feel of the site and and also the tone and voice in in your socials. I'm curious about your your time at LinkedIn in, you know, in crypto, you know, the the primary channel for to build awareness is is X or Twitter. But it's so noisy that I've often thought, like, I wonder if there are other channels that are not such so noisy, not so busy yet. And I've often thought about, I wonder how LinkedIn, how effective LinkedIn could be. And I've tried, I've done some tests and some experiments. I'm curious from your experience having worked at LinkedIn, like, about that is a potential marketing channel to reach audiences in crypto. 100%. And I'm sure it's being used as well, just for different purposes, right? So the good thing about LinkedIn, it's still the one source of information where people go to if they want to find, example, the CMO of Binance or the CFO of Binance. It's really hard to find that on Twitter, right? They might be using anonymous handles or whatever, or they might just not be on it because they're not a social person per se. But most people do have a LinkedIn profile and regardless of how much information that is. So in terms of companies that want to target specific companies or look for specific people with a certain skill set, for example, developers, et cetera. LinkedIn is still very much their go-to in terms of targeting those audience. However, I do agree that there is still spam on LinkedIn. I'm sure we've all received it. It's recruiters sending out messages or beady people sending out messages left, and center. So is there a nicer filtering system? Not provided by LinkedIn yet, but then a lot of people also have their own, you know, like filter bots that help them filter. So, and, but one way that I think would be really, really cool and that I personally really want to see is to add a verification layer. Cause actually CZ from Binance just tweeted about it. That there are a lot of, I think like his post is something like there are over 7,000 employees claiming to work for Binance on LinkedIn and only like half of them are real. so he wishes that there's a way to verify that, you know, from a company's perspective, right, to just verify that this person is real. Because that's also the number one feedback that I received when I was working at LinkedIn back then. Like, it's like, You know, there are all these people, you know, claiming to have graduated from Harvard, Stanford, or that they have worked at, you know, like Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan before. How do I know it's real? so that's when, you know, they hire that person and then they do the reference check. But it will really nice if we remove remove the, you know, reference check and actually bring it forward where it's all verified for stemming from the schools, so educating the education and then educating the companies afterwards. to verify and then afterwards, I think once it's a lot more cleaner data and then in terms of even, you know, be it the outreach and everything, it will be much better and it'll be much, I personally would love to see the whole verification done on chain as well. I think that'll be really nice. Yeah, but it's less of a tech lift, but more of an education for all. definitely be a very native Web3 kind of thing to have verification on chain. Let's switch topics to Milky Way. If you were to describe Milky Way to your mom, how would you do it? Oh, that's a tough one. Um, I know, right? Things are fitting in a lot of thought. I'm not too worried about it now. Okay, I'll give this a go. So to my mom, who knows absolutely nothing about Web3, even with LinkedIn, she struggled, because back then I was like, it's just a professional Facebook. And she's still like, but why? Okay, so this has to be like even like, you know, another level of doubt. Okay, so I'll be like, because for Milky Way, for those like the Web3 people, I'll be like, we provide crypto security, right? If someone does something right, then we reward them. If someone does something wrong, we slash them. And people risk like people can help provide the security by, you know, Committing or providing deposits and then they get the rewards or get slashed Depending on who they stake it to so that's the high level of how I would explain it to someone who understands web3 But then obviously that will not work for my mom. So I will try this analogy instead That I'm saying for the first time so for example you hire someone to build a house for you, right? And so you need a bunch of workers to you know, lay the bricks or paint the walls or whatever And you want to know that that person is like you hired a good person. And so what happens is you find someone to do it, obviously those workers, but then you also don't know whether that worker is good. And so you will have people who will be like, okay, I vote for that person. I'm putting a hundred dollars vote, like credibility that this person is going to do their job well. And so I hired 10 workers to go lay the foundation, paint the jobs, right? And then all of these have this reference check of backing. And then I will pay the workers to do their work. And if that worker is doing their job great, like delivering what they say they're going to do, they're going to lay, you know, like 10 bricks a day. They did it awesome. So I pay them that day. And then since it's a good reputation, then, you know, the person who referred them will get a cut of it. as well. But if the worker just slacked off and didn't just laid like for example eight bricks into ten bricks then I'll be like yo you didn't do your job. Like that's not what I what you know, I thought I'm getting. And so from that, you know, refer, I'm going to like take a cut out of it to punish them because that's not what you said that, you know, the worker is going to deliver. And so I'm going to, you know, just take it out and then probably distribute it to the other workers or I'm just going to keep it for myself or or something else or just, you know, burn it up in flames because I'm angry that that was not what what was guaranteed to me. So, yeah, I'm going to explain it to my mom in that sense that I am just building this kind of marketplace for this sort of security and guarantee that the house will be built on time in a timely fashion and with a good quality in place. No, I think that works. That's a good analogy. I've heard various analogies of, know, a city like for bridges, for example, you know, or interoperability. There's, you know, there are cities and there's some bridges in between and then each city has services. And I like the example that you shared of slashing and burning and those are all really great concepts in the analogy you shared, I think would make sense. Now if you're speaking to a native Web3 person, how would you explain Milky Way and kind of its closest comparables? Maybe not necessarily in the Cosmos ecosystem, could be in other ecosystems too. Sure. So, it's a native Web3 person, usually how I start is like, have you heard of eigen layer? And the answer honestly is usually yes. And then I will ask then. It's like, Because I've also come to real, at first I'll be like, you know Eigenlayer, that's cool, that's the easiest way. Then they work on Ethereum, provide security for Ethereum-based projects, or Solidity-Race projects. And then for us, we do restaking in the modular ecosystem. That's high, I mean, obviously, in the details, but at high level, that's the easiest way to explain it. But what I realized is a lot of people, even though they've heard of the word Eigenlayer or they have interacted with Eigenlayer and its LRT platforms like EtherFi, they don't actually know what they do. So if I'm really trying to explain, explain, then I'll kind of do a deep dive as well and then be like, so what do you know about Eigen? And then I kid you not, most of the chances it would be like, oh, I get I got their airdrop and then I'm like... and like do you know like are you still staking your ETH with them and then like or back then when you you know deposit your ETH with them or renzo or whatever um do you know what it's doing and then again i'll be like they'll they'll say i get points from it i've had this conversation so many times and then i realized that um actually like for degen like not not builders builders of course they know right um but then for like you know degens out there who might be building other stuff or like just like farmers in general, and then they don't know. And so I think that's also another thing that we've kind of realized in terms of when we were designing the architecture, in terms of like, okay, we need to kind of flip this as well, because users need to know the risk. And also it makes it a lot more fun for them if they know what they're securing, right? So this is a gap that we've noticed in terms of all of these projects building on Eigen layer using their security. then these, there's a lot of, you know, users as well that, you know, staked with Eigen and the other LRT platforms. But there is a gap in terms of they don't know who they're securing. And then the projects also don't know who are the users, like basically their early supporters. And that's why for our architect, we're actually flipping the design. The underlying concept is the same in terms of providing the security, but then on the UX level, it's going to be way more fun because we, for the first time, will connect these two parties. And so with that interaction, we think it will be way more fun for both parties. And so two questions. I think that's really unique insight that you have with, you know, first you made the assumption, have you heard of Eigenlayer? And then people would say, of course. But then do you know like the mechanism designed behind it? And most people really, they're just farming it for points because they want the airdrop, but they don't really know the risk of staking or restaking or whatever. And I think that's really unique insight that led you to some key product decisions it sounds like and or positioning and messaging kind of decisions for Milky Way. What were those conversations like when you learned of those kind of unique insights and how did you and the team, I guess, come to terms with making changes internally on the Milky Way product? Sure. So it will be from a few factors, like, because for EigenLayer, would be apart from, you know, themselves, there are three parties involved, or three buckets of parties. There will be the end user, those providing the Ethereum for security, and obviously the projects that are being secured by Eigen, and also the operators that actually provide the actual, you know, services for the projects, right? So we spoke with all three groups, and we notice for their pain points, right? So from the user's perspective, that's what I shared. Like, they'd be like, oh, I, you know, have no, some of them actually have no idea that they're actually securing anything. Some might have a vague idea, but because the problem is they can't choose who they secure. And so why, like, if there's no option, then why would they care? Right? And like, it's like, oh yeah, someone else chooses for me anyway. So like kind of high level know, you know, who the services are. but then what can I do about it? So they don't care it as well, right? And then another thing is in terms of the operators, it's also, so sorry, just to flip it back and describe it from the user's perspective, how it works currently as user deposit their ETH. And then actually they can choose an operator to delegate the ETH to. But from their perspective, all operators are kind of the same, right? Like there's Figmin, there's P2P, et cetera. like, obviously each is their own company, but from an end user perspective. they all just run infrastructure and it's not very exciting to choose between the different operators unless you really know them personally or you know your custodian, your institutional, et cetera. But an end user, won't know and frankly, they don't really care. And so most of them just either click randomly or just don't even bother to delegate. And then the operator receives his delegation. So they kind of need to do some marketing, do some BD to get more delegation, which is very hard. for them as well and they need to do the DDN research in terms of choosing which AVS or project that they want to secure. So it's actually quite a lot of work for them to have to both be the end user and also decide which services to run. So these are the pain points for them. And then from the project perspective, Then they're just very passively sitting there and then talking to the operators, hey, can you run services for me, et cetera. And then they have absolutely no insight to all of these early supporters of theirs who are actually delegating to the overall high level Eigen layer or the LRTs. So that is the current flow right now. And we notice the pain points from all three parties. And we went out there to solve it with our architecture. So how our flow works, it's actually a lot more fun. It's a lot more dynamic in the sense that the users can actually choose which services they want to secure. So it's a lot more fun for them, So they can see that because it's very different projects. So we have a bridging solution. And so they can be like, oh, I believe in bridging interoperability that's really to help with your adoption, so I want to support that. Or it can be, you know, or you're to flip it and be like, but, you know, based on previous news, it can be quite prone to like, you know, hacks, I don't know. So I might not want to secure a bridging solution. So it's completely up to the user, right, but then they can get to choose. And then we will also list out, you know, apart from what the project does, it's also, you know, the founders, so they can actually do the DD in terms of I like these founders. The founding team is amazing. They built XYZ project before it exited, so it should probably do well. That's why I want to support them. And there will also be a description, including the rounds it raised. then so it can be like, oh, I love their cap table, XYZ company invested. So I think that's probably going to do well. And that's why I want to support them as well. So it can be whatever reason, or it can just be the most fundamental. It's like, they provide the highest yield so I'm gonna you know just support this because all of the other yeah exactly all yes exactly oh but but we internally think that that what if because all of these projects have no token yet so some some people might be like I still just want to support all of them to max out my chances. So we do have a select all button basically. And for people to be, OK, I'm just going to distribute evenly and then see my chances with that. Just go all in. And so yeah, it's going to be a lot more fun, a lot more dynamic on the UX level fundamentally. It's the same. then, yeah, so that's why we're really excited about it. That's great. I mean, on the one hand, you're dealing with kind of a cold start problem. You need enough stake to provide security that will invite projects to build. Do you call it EVS on Milky Way? Active Validated System, okay. call it ABSS. Well, yeah, we decide to not reinvent the wheels per se, because when we're speaking with others, it's just that the term comes out like people building the space, like they're familiar with the terminology. So we decide to focus our effort on inventing the flow, solving pain points rather than the terminology themselves. think that's smart. how did you deal with the, you know, dealing with the, two-sided market of getting enough stake to attract the builders to come build on Milky Way? Or was it kind of a simultaneous, you know, BD effort on both ends? It's definitely simultaneous, but we're very lucky and blessed in the sense that we're building in the modular ecosystem and it's very, I won't say tight knit, but it's a very... caring and loving ecosystem in that sense where everyone's very welcoming. And so if there are new builders coming in, we usually help each other out. And it's not just from a BD perspective, right? It's just, you know, kind of founders talking to each other and just helping out on stuff, be it from like, you know, company registration. At the beginning, it's like, oh, you know, how do you set your entity up, et cetera, to like, you know, kind of like fundraising 101, because a lot of people haven't done it before, including ourselves, like when we started, we asked around a lot. And then it's a very simple question. What goes in a fundraising deck, for example? And then so like, there'd be like, you know, we did it and then someone like we asked people who've done it before, and then it will be like people coming in afterwards. So it's a very friendly ecosystem, where we helped each other out. And so that in terms of like beating for security, so everyone kind of knows what each other building and then like if there's any synergy, It's pretty... early on and we will have known each other from other conversations probably and then it will be like, you're actually building this or pivoted to this and then we can actually collab on this front and then help you launch faster because the whole thing for projects is that why restaking exists, like if I'm speaking to a founder is they will probably be building something that requires security, right? Be it a bridge, be it on Oracle, be it a DeFi platform and then for them, it's like they don't want to be for that, you know, TBL themselves. And then so we have one TBL that, you know, they can share use. So for me, I'll be like, Hey, you focus on building the your product, right? Be it, you know, money market, be it a bridge, be it an Oracle, and then we will handle the security for you until, you know, because it's always rental, right? Where we never expect them to basically use it for ever because the idea is that they're going to your token and then it's gonna amass enough security themselves that they can remove it. And that's also another cool design that we have because a lot of projects are scared of just doing a cold cut switch, right? It's like, okay, I rent security from say Ethereum or Bitcoin. and then it like, but then my token launches and then it goes well and then it's a cold switch and then so it's like, oh, but that's a lot of pressure. What if, you know, something goes like there's a black swan event or whatever, right? And then so we have a mechanism where they can basically choose the percentage. It's like, okay, I want to be, you know, secured by. yeah or USDC 100 % in the beginning and then my token launches and it's a gradual switch and then they can switch back as well. So that's something that you know it gives a lot of peace of mind for the founders as well. So yeah, we're really blessed in the sense that we're building in this space and that everyone has a very collaborative mentality moving forward. It's really about not fighting over the same pie, but really growing the pie. That's how we see it over here. Two things, I think your insight to create that feature, to be able to switch off is scary for a lot of these projects and founders. And so to be able to slowly reduce the percentage or the reliance on the security of Milky Way and then more on theirs and then a toggle between the percentage I think is really smart. How did you guys come up with that feature in your product? talking to other projects, like everything we didn't just fabricate from our mind. Everything is from talking to the upcoming projects, knowing what they're building, what will they want. So we know that everything we're building right now, it's not fixed in stone. It's based on the feedback of existing market demand. And that changes all the time, right? And then so everything that we build has that flexibility in mind. It's like kind of like plug and play that it has to be easily switched out and replaceable. And so it came from, you know, projects who have, you know, research into, you know, other reseeking products or just thinking about their token. Cause I mean, most projects are thinking about their own token, right? And then it's like, how do I, a So they really like our, like, or we designed the approach to solve their needs, right? It's like, how do I identify early supporters? Cause these early supporters who support them before their token has launched, then they can target them. and then they can even have a public cell or whatever. And then it's like, hey, early support is my token is launching. Will you want to buy in? Or they can just choose to airdrop them to reward them if they don't need a public cell. But it's just growing that community for them. That's how they see our platform. So obviously, the toggle and the switch, that's also another great way for them to gradually ease in and introduce their token. So I didn't come up with a term, but then a lot of projects I explained that, they'd be like, so it's like a launchpad. And I'm like, well, yeah, in a way, but we're not doing like, you the central exchange, like, you know, that's completely different, right? But then in terms of, you know, community side, then sure, yes. That makes sense. Now you guys have made a big bet on the modular ecosystem. And for those not that that are not familiar, that's that's essentially the cosmos ecosystem. And it's been kind of rebranded to the modular ecosystem, which is, think, a pretty recent thing since Celestia, I believe. I remember going to a cosmos event back in. 2000, when was it? 2019, I think in San Francisco. And I remember how cool it was. And there was a ton of Ethereum people there. I was there with another project that I was working with, Oasis. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. And I just remember how many developers were there, how focused they were on building. Which was, and you get the same feeling in the Ethereum community too, but it's kind of changed a lot since then. there's been a lot more politics and I think there's some level of politics in the cosmos ecosystem too, but I feel like there's kind of a recent emergence of like the modular ecosystem and then modular versus monolithic, which is kind of this, you know, really interesting interplay and narrative that has come up. What made you guys make a big bet on the modular ecosystem versus And correct me if I'm wrong, I believe Milky Way is the first liquid staking protocol on Cosmos, right? So the first, for Celestia, I got it, sorry. And the first in any category is like, you wanna be the first in any category. So great job there. But what made you make a big bet on that? Excuse me. Great question. Also made me realize that I should have probably introduced in terms of how well can we start it in the beginning. But yet, so I think I mentioned that I met my other two co-founders at Tendermint, which is the founding company of Cosmos. So this was in 2021. And actually, Tendermint has a venture arm that invested in a Celestia seed round way back. five years ago when they did the seed round. And so we've always known about them and being supporters of them, right? Because it's really cool in terms of how they're providing DA to make roll-up costs go way down. So essentially for people who might not know, for roll-ups currently the average transaction fee is like $0.11. And it's okay if it's just a swap or whatever. But then for more interactive projects, for example, you're a gambling site, you're a gaming site, and then you need to make a move or something, right? And then if you walk across or just do something and then imagine you need to pay like$0.1 per action, then that's a lot of money. And then so for them, it's to really drastically bring that cost down so that it enables more use cases that can be built, right? So that's why we've always been supporters of it. And then when Celestia was launching in 2023, 2023, my co-founders being the tech guys, one's a blockchain engineer, one's a full-seq engineer. So they were talking with other Cosmos OGs terms of, oh, Celestia's mind-launching, cool. It was still a bear market back then. And then they looked into the code base, of course, and then were like, wait a second. So there are three other liquid-seeking providers in Cosmos then, and still now. And then they were like, wait a second, Celestia's Genesis file is missing this module. that enables existing liquid sticking providers to support them essentially. And then so they talked to Celestia team and was like, yo, you guys missed this need to add this or else it won't work. And then Celestia was like, but we're gearing up for main at lunch and if anything does not need a different DA, we're not going to add it. And so they were like, Well, so let's just going to be a big chain and then all big, uh, previous state chains need liquid staking. And so let's build it. then, basically rounded up the old gang was bear markets or like, sure. Why not just sit at home for two months and then give it a shot. And then if it doesn't work, then we can, you know, all job as a team, build something else. Um, but that'll be fun, right? Cause you know, I'm product and then once blockchain once full stack, and then, we kind of have it, um, in terms of, and then we've launched products before, uh, together. And so we were like, okay. You do, we do our own, like, you know, it's like back to working together again. And then, okay. So it's like hit the ground running, it's full speed ahead. And then, so we just sat at home, worked and we launched and then we were incredibly lucky in the sense that market turned just at the same time. And then I actually had a friend who pinged me. He's... God bless his soul. He, was an ex-colleague at LinkedIn and then he went to FTX afterwards. And then he got absolutely destroyed and then like his soul got crushed. and he hasn't done any DeFi activities basically for the entire bear market cycle. And then he was like, your platform was the first platform that I used since I got back into the trenches. And then I was looking into, he was reading the blogs and articles and he was like, he saw my name. And then he was like, then he looked it up. was like, oh shit, it's actually you. That's why he messaged me. then so like we captured that wave of like people who start using stuff again because the market was picking up and then there weren't that many products launching and then so we were very lucky in the sense that because we decided to build in the bear right and then so that's when people started building again but we have just launched and then we also raised our seed round you know from Polychain's finance labs at the same time and then we spent the last year basically building out the restaking platform so that was really fun and then since we started in the modular space and then so we're still building in the modular space But the whole point of the modular ecosystem is to build whatever, right? And so, yes, we're starting in Web 3, but then we've always been like our long term vision is to basically bring crypto economic security to the real world as well. So I'm very, you know, like kind of spoken with other friends or acquaintances who are not in our industry at all. Right. And then so they run, you know, fintech companies, supply chains like sort of stuff and I was like, hey, what do you think of, you know, using blockchain tech? Because you always share, you know, your pain points of stuff not being secured, like there's just no way for accountability, etc. And they're like, oh, that'd be really interesting, but they just have no idea in terms of, you know, how to even get started, right? And so that is our long term vision. you know, sitting in the modular space really helps achieve that vision as well, because it's really about, you know, building whatever it's not just about know, cosmos, but then it's about facilitation for the broader world as well. the I appreciate you sharing your long-term vision. What's the plan to get there? I mean, it feels like it's a lot of work right now just within the Celestia ecosystem. But to go beyond that, even within Web3, first, you're probably thinking about interoperability and getting stake from other ecosystems. I'm guessing. Would love your answer on that. And then to go beyond Web 3 back into Web 2. I guess what are your plans there? Sure, so in terms of the stake, do think it's a balance because it's like you have the supply that secures the demand, right? Yes, the supply is important, but I also feel like the demand is important. And back to what I said in terms of we're all firm believers of growing the pie together rather than fighting over the same pie, per se. Right. And so we do have the option. And a lot of people have also told me, right, why don't you enable the deposit for ether, for Bitcoin, et cetera. So it's always an option on the table. I'm not saying that we won't do it, but at the same we're also really good friends with the folks over at Eigen Symbiotic at Babylon as well. And so for them we've always been in discussion in terms of partnerships in the future because they have their supply on both sides and we have our supply, right? So if we enable it, technically it's very easy, we can have it done tomorrow. But then at the same time it's like then we're fighting over, you know, supply in that sense. and TVL. so it's a more collaborative thing that we envision in terms of how the forces can be joined together to achieve that interoperable. Because end users, honestly, it'd be amazing, I don't have to bridge assets and then use multiple wallets. Having that chain agnostic user feel, really important. And same for the builders, Right now, they need to choose, should I go EVM? Should I go movie? I'm fresh. go SVM. Should I deploy my own chain, etc, etc? And then so it'll be really nice to... Yes, I know. And then like... And that's what people need to choose. Like we went through that ourselves as well, right? And then so in terms of like, uh, interoperable, like, you know, merging... So that's how we see things as well. And in terms of going for, you know, kind of the real world use cases, then I think it's really, you know, the industry coming together and, you know, really going out there. It's going to be a lot more on the education, you know, side of bringing awareness that, you know, it's not just about meme coin trading, but there are a lot more, you know, use cases as well. mean, meme coin trading is fun. but then there's also the other stuff. I mentioned at the beginning, I love the look and feel and the tone that you guys are taking with it. It feels very user friendly. Just the colors, the rounded edges, and even the name, Milky Way. What were some of the, what's the thinking behind, rather than coming up with a highly technical, overly complicated name like most Web3 people do, you came up with something fun. Yes, I'm not going to take credit because I did not come up with the name, but then for the name it's so it's very Cosmos actually in that sense. It's liquid staking. Our first product line was liquid staking, right? Second part line was restaking. So it's like, what is liquid in the cosmocellular space? And then so it's like, oh, the milky way, milk is liquid. And so that's how it started. And then it's just exactly like you said, right? Just a name that's easy to pronounce, easy to remember. And so we went with that. we kind of diverged from the star. and whatnot to like cows. Because that will be really, okay, that's actually way more memeable than like just stars. And then also a lot more fun and you know, expressive, right? And then so like all the milk curtains, all the cows and all this stuff just evolved. And then like we have a lot of fun, you know, just building stuff. And then so for our designer, or actually the entire team member, right? We've all worked together before. That's something that... I'm really personally very happy about is the culture that we've built internally. Because I was product and then I shared I'm product and then another co-founder is blockchain and the one is full stack. And then we basically looped in all of our ex-colleagues from marketing community, all the other engineers and then all the other and the UX designer who have to take full credit in terms of everything that you just mentioned. when we're building and then it's like back in the days, right? But then except that we decide to do this together and then just build a culture that we all enjoy, right? And then product lines, they're all just a new one and then you never know, it comes and goes, right? But then it's just like, we enjoy the process together. And then so it's very fun in terms of like people will throw ideas out and then it's like, yo, for a mascot, which one is great? And they're like, vote, vote, vote, vote. And then it's like very equal. voting so I love it. It's a nice and enjoyable. It's a fruit for from all of our late births really. That's great. That's the, I think that's a blessing when, when you come up with a, a really nice motif or extendable theme, you know, you first, started out with, you know, Milky Way, like the stars, like constellations and then galaxies, and then like, well milk, I mean, and then there's cows and like, you can extend and it, it, in, and if you involve the community, which sounds like you guys have, gets everybody involved and then they become, they take it as part of their identity. And then you have a, that's how you build a culture. And when I've done my research on the Milky Way community and the culture and looking at your socials, it's clear that you guys have built a really strong community around not just what you guys are doing, but they feel like they're like part of it. and not just there as mercenaries trying to get some kind of airdrop, but it really feels like you've got people that have been there long term. Is that how you see it? Yes, 100 % because it's back to when I shared that we launched at a really lucky timing. So we captured a lot of the users from the previous cycle. So those are like, you know, actual users, right? They just, you know, probably haven't done anything in the defined landscape for two years because of, you know, bear market is not interested. But then the market picked up and then so they don't need an education, right? They're just like, ooh, okay, let me access this like, you know, coupler wall, this metamath wall that I haven't touched in two years. And then they just pick it back right up, right? And then, and then so we have that group of users. But we also obviously have like, you know, new users who went their last cycle and then who just, you know, joined the space. And so, yeah, and then when we launched, like, you know, it wasn't that sophisticated compared to right now with, you know, a lot of people running 100 paths to farm. So, yeah, so we built a really genuine community from the get-go and it's definitely, you know, very lucky on and we're very, very grateful to have them along with the ride. That's cool. I want to switch topics really quick. You mentioned bots and farms and agents. How is Milky Way responding to this new world where agents are now involved in potentially managing a wallet and then transactions and then potentially agent operators being able to do transactions end end? What are your thoughts around that? Um, well, for me, I think like personally like, sorry, if that person uses it on a benefit them on a personal level, it's like, you know, I don't have time to, you know, handle all of these. And then so I have a bot that, you know, okay, I want to interact with, you know, these five protocols, I want to use them, but I just don't have the time. And then so you know, I a script and the bot does it for me or etc. Right. And so I think that's really good use case. Obviously, from founders perspective, in terms of the community, we would want them to genuinely participate. But so it really depends on the level of participation, right? And that's also why we also segment our users. Like, you know, there will be ones who are very active, you know, in Discord, you know, helping out others. Might be a bot as well. But then it's more about their intent, right? In terms of, you know, how they're participating in the community. then so if so, that's how we see it in terms of the genuine level. Yeah, so there will be bots, you know, that run the transactions, because, you know, it's purely transaction, they use it, but then there'll be people who are more involved. And just talk a lot and have fun and you know, make memes and then just like, you know, share. What about the AI space? I guess when I speak bots, what we're calling agents right now, autonomous agents, are really just bots. But there could be a world soon where these agents are autonomous and they think on their own. How would they interact with, I guess, are you planning from a product perspective? How do you deal with that kind of world where the user is this autonomous agent. Yes. Well, a lot of companies are building that already, right? It's like, you know, setting up right now, it's like all the reply guys, they're thinking in terms of like the responses as well. But then there are also ones that, you know, will trade on your behalf. You know, you send them like, you know, whatever money and then like set these programs with the agents and then they'll, you know, like do the trading and everything. And then the next level of specification will, you know, interact with the DeFi protocols. So the thing is, we actually won't be able to differentiate in the sense that the transaction wasn't signed by the person actively clicking or just authorizing the bot to do it or the agent to do it on their behalf. So in terms of the on-chain data, it would be hard to spot. so that's kind of out of... It doesn't matter exactly. to the user. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. So that's why we're doing a segmentation between the on-chain users. Very important as well. But then there's also the community who is more on the talking side, right? Because even right now without AI, there are still a lot of people who use this, but aren't part of the active community. So it's very two separate user group in that sense. That makes sense. It's the beginning of 2025 and there's going to be a bunch of events this year. Any plans on attending events and what the community can look forward to? 100%. So yeah, so as per most Web3 companies, we go, you know, quarter by quarter. It's quite hard to see, you know, like, are you going to be at the event at Q4, right? Because it really depends on how things go. And so, yeah, but we will definitely be at ConsenSys and at ETHember. And we are, thank you for the reminder, we are planning stuff. We need to get to yes. good. Anything you'd like to share with the audience before we, before ETH Denver, because that's coming up in about a month. Yes, stay tuned. Stay tuned. That sounds good. Well, Josie, this has been really great and have looked forward to speaking with you. I have good friends that work at Celestia and they have said really great things about Milky Way and what you guys are doing there and kind of your product vision and leadership. So kudos to you and the team. And kudos to you and the team. You guys are doing a great job. Before we get off, any final words you'd like to share with the audience? well, thank you very much for the time for listening and yeah, thank you again, Peter, for having me. great fun. Awesome. I'm going to put all the contact info in the show notes. That way, anyone that's interested in participating on Milky Way can go there and follow you on Twitter. But thank you. This was great. Thank you.