Chad, welcome to the show. Nice to be here Mr. Obiela. A pleasure. So you are kind of a household name in the crypto marketing kind of world. um But tell the audience a little bit about you. um And then we'll get into kind of the main topic that we're going to be talking about today, which is RareMinds, which you just launched this week. But tell us about you, how you got into crypto, and um kind of your experience in the crypto marketing space. Well, first of all, Peter, thank you for giving me the distribution to be able to show. We'll definitely be talking about that today in today's conversation on all things marketing. I really appreciate it. My name is Shad. I am the founder and managing director of Giga. We are a marketing and brand agency. We've been in the space for close to a decade. Before that, I was just your average marketer. I started in politics, moved to e-comm, DTC, SaaS, that type of stuff. I got into crypto during the ICO era. And nowadays we work with ecosystems, consumer protocols, that type of thing, spicy stuff. That's amazing. And I don't know if you're able to share any kind of household name clients that you, you know, ah would love to hear maybe some stories there that'll give kind of people a less abstract kind of feel for the type of marketing that you guys have done. Anyway, if that's something you want to get into now, that'd be really cool. Sure. Well, before crypto, it was the conservative party in the UK. I'm not sure how much impact I had there though, as well as brands like Gymshark, Cloudflare, and some other like quite large, let's say, household names, real household names, lots of paid ads, media buys, this type of thing. In crypto, the early clients was actually ConsenSys. So we were helping them with lot of their ICOs back when Joe Lubin was like properly in charge. ConsenSys just started. as well as uh the OGs, know Fenn Boushi in Asia. We were quite big in Asia. We're doing Asian launches and things of this nature. More recently, some interesting clients are like Venus, which is a money market. We help Uniswap DAO, which is obviously a big DEX. BitTensor, we do lots of interesting stuff with BitTensor, which is the number one AI crypto project right now, uh as well as sneaky stuff in the Solana ecosystem. with web terminals and other money markets. Sneaky stuff sounds really intriguing, but we don't have to get into it Tell us about rare minds well first of all you have a telegram channel that I'm part of that is really fun and you share you it's called shads mental breakdown and you share a lot of uh Emotional stuff in there uh and educational stuff uh And and you have a quite a popular Twitter uh account that I love and it's very educational and fun. And you have taken all of that as well as the last 10 years of experience and you've created Rare Minds. So tell us about Rare Minds. Like what is it, who's it for? um Let's get into it. So at Giga, we don't like hiring in Web3. Like we mostly hire from Web2. So a lot of our talent are coming from places like Sarchis or KarmaRama or UggleVee or Pentagram, which are like these top agencies in the Web2 space. And a lot of those people want to move. But when they come into crypto, they're like super fresh. And we needed a way to take these copywriters that have 15 years of experience. They work with Apple, Rolls-Royce. Nike, Durex, these types of brands, and it needs to go shill shitcoins on Twitter, right? And much more. And so we needed this transition, this bridge course. And so we built this education internally. We were keeping it close to our chest. We thought it was our source, our, let's call it method. We call it the giga-method. And then over last six months, nine months, I really saw a flood of new people. flood of new people coming in into the space, lots of young, hungry, ambitious people that really want to make a dent. But I realized the biggest thing missing was this resource, which was just kind of people wrapping all their experience, not gatekeeping it, and kind of giving out the source, so to speak. And that was the idea. That was the idea behind RareMind. So RareMind is a platform for finding a job for employers to find like the the kind of like hidden talent, the one that isn't on LinkedIn, the one that you find at conferences or in discords, you know, they might be a bit introverted. And then we have our education, which is primarily focused for marketers, creatives, BD and founders. Why would you give away the secret sauce that has helped Giga do well in last 8 to 10 years? Good question. mean, like it was a question for us internally of whether we should do it. at like, just became as kind of like an industry, like the pie is just so big now. So like, even if people use our own playbook against us, like that's okay. Like a lot of the power comes in the execution. So you can know the playbook, you can know the abstract, you can even understand how to apply the tactics. But unless you're able to execute at a really high level, unless you have that experience and repetition under your belt, it's not going to make a difference. And it's like for ourselves, a lot of our clients, especially our big clients, were people who are in our alumni network. They used to work for us. They learned from us. And they go out and become, you know, like a CMO or CEO or found their own company. And then they hire us later on. And I realized that if like we're giving out this education, like Arrogantly, it should have a positive EV impacts on themselves on how much money they're making and the success of their business. And that's going to come in a roundabout way back to us. Right. So it's not, it's not completely selfless. Like the cell is a selfish good deed. Um, you know, it builds our brand reputation. It builds my personal brand. It sets us as an authority and it just gets us more clients as well. uh I think that if you look at big consultancies like the McKinsey's of the world, they view themselves as the same thing, They've got em people join McKinsey and then they leave and then they typically end up as clients back at McKinsey when they enter the Fortune 500 force. so I wonder if that's kind of the growth loop or the growth kind of flywheel that might start happening with Giga is you've got alumni that are joining projects and then they come back to Giga as clients. Is that something you've seen already? I would say like 60 % of our current clients are people who worked with us in 17, 18, 19. That's great. That's a huge success story right there. That's great. Well, tell us about Rare Minds. first of all, me... So rareminds.com and then slash courses slash the Giga method. the dash or what is that? Hyphen, the hyphen Giga hyphen method. I'll put it in the show notes. Anyway, so tell us about the Giga method. Sure. two questions in there. Like, how do we conceive RareMinds and then the Giga method itself? I think I can screen share for the Giga method. RareMinds is a bit of a sad story. I'm not going to lie. Back in like late 20 teens, we had a very successful recruiting agency, a side business. A lot of our team is based in Ukraine. I used to live in Ukraine. And up until 2021, the business was booming. The business was called Make It in Ukraine. You go Google it. It was doing super well. We had clients like Bitfury, Zerion, KFC, Taco Bell, Fortune 500 companies, like it was booming. And then the war starts in 2022 and the business basically just collapses. We lose all of our treasury. We spent it on aid, food, trucks, hotels, know, first and last month's you know, just team salaries, even though no one was working. And there was no more clients coming in. No one wanted to, everyone was worried about hiring Ukrainian talent during that first year. And so the business just collapsed, essentially. And so we had to fire 80 % of the staff and the 20%, four people basically came to Giga and acted as our internal HR. And we kind of had this promise that at some point in the future, when we were back on our feet, we would spawn it in a new incarnation. And... um Yeah, like everything we learnt, know, the Redmine's team is four of them, uh Marella, Diana, Ivana, and Ms. Lipak. They always travel conferences, they're always on the circuit, they have a huge Rolodex of like top flight people, just like yourself, you know, they're always kind of like free agents, can be at top projects and so on. ah And yeah, like we planned the rebrand, we wanted to launch it, at the same time we were doing our internal education, so we're just like... Well, if we put out education, that's going to be a great funnel for talent to come in. And like, you know, most recruiters think about it, like, I'm going to go find clients on LinkedIn. I'm going to pester them until they become my client. But we think of it more like acting agencies or model agencies. Like you want to go find a talent and then you represent them. Right. And you build relationships over decades because they might go work somewhere for two years, three years. They've done their job. They've had their impact and then they want to go on somewhere else. So if you have a Rolodex of a few thousand people like that, like that is the business, right? And you're just keeping those relationships alive, slowly bringing in new people. So that's kind of rare minds in a nutshell. Got it, so it's two, okay, so we're talking about two things. So Rare Minds is the talent agency, for a lack of better word. And then the Giga method, that's the educational stuff that we're gonna go through in a bit. Okay, I did not know that, that's really cool. um Very cool, all right, go for it. You want me to to screen share? Yeah, if you're ready, yeah, think people kind of want to feel and touch and experience, you know, this amazing educational resource that you guys have built. Thank you. Very humbling. ah Did the slide change? Cool. So this is like a five-minute ah quick deck. And this kind of highlights the whole thesis and like how we think about our approach, what it is, and like the details around it. ah Externally, we call it the Giga method. Internally, we call it 60-30-10. And you'll see why in a second. So at a very high level overview, like we believe... All marketing in crypto is composed of first mechanism, then narrative, then distribution. So mechanisms are the growth levers where the main network effects take place. Narrative is the communicative and visual layer in which you speak to the world, right? You highlight your mechanism, you sell it, you message it. And then finally, at the very end point, you have distribution and distribution just serves those needs, right? The Giga method, you know, a lot of people kind of start with like this kind of idea of like a discord group or some form of community that wants your token or your airdrop. And we believe that's kind of like the opposite of what you should do. You don't want overhyped launches. You don't want to hide mindshare launches. It's a net negative in a long term. um And yeah, in this deck, we also go through what we build in this course. look at this formatting. really need to change this. So 60-40-10, 60 % mechanism, 30 % narrative, 10 % distribution. So the 60 % is like when we think of mechanisms, we're talking about like, if you think of like Uniswap, you're thinking of the V3 contracts, you're thinking of liquidity modes, you're thinking of core fiscal policies within the ecosystem and how it works. You're thinking about where the network effect actually takes place. for these ecosystems to grow. So in Web2, a lot of network effect might take place when you onboard into an app, you add your contacts. If you share contacts, you get referral points, and then you have this kind of social viral loop. However, in crypto, it's when Banser and Compound are using v3 contracts underneath, and then they go multi-chain. And then they connect with, you know, the rest of the DeFi world with LSTs, CDPs, whatever it might be, money markets, there's loops, there's leverage. That's when you get true network effects. When you integrate with different stable coin providers, when you have new money inflows, that's what a network effect takes place. So what we preach is the mindset of value accrual. Like you have a base layer, almost every single project that's like true crypto has some sort of base layer. And that's where you're trying to accrue the value back to. And what's really important is that you roll it out properly. So you don't want to do like a big launch. You launch on every single centralized exchange with a big market maker or set of market makers at the exact same time. And then you launch your token, but you have no builders. You have no TVL. You have no apps that can take all that energy and actually use it for something conducive, right? So this is what we consider the 60%. This is basically the win or lose segment. If you mess this up, you mess everything up. Then we have the narrative, which is, you know, most people just call it brand, but we think it's a little bit different in crypto, right? You might have heard of like memetics, know, cultural decor, things that there's certain positioning. Our whole idea in the course is that you shouldn't go full web to crazy positioning frameworks, you know, brand reworks and things of this nature. You're not going through 20 different uh acronym doubts, concepts on FigJam. You do want to keep it like relatively simple, but you want to speak to all of your different audience segments. So like what we highlight in the course is that the standard crypto product has many different ecosystem agents and all of them extremely valuable. Most of them are complete oversight. So these days, what people mostly market towards are like holders. The elephant in the room is they want buy pressure, but you also have your ecosystem agents, your traders, your liquidity providers, your builders, integrators, core builders who come and work for the pros call amongst many other different segments. uh And depending on who you are or what you are rolling out, it's like vital to the mechanism that you're trying to support for your narrative to properly do it. And then finally, We have distribution. We consider distribution to be the easy part, right? It's just a media mix. It's just channels. It's just tactics. It's just growth hacks, uh rolling campaigns. I think a lot of people on Twitter flip it on its head. Distribution is everything. And they focus on all these tactics and consider that to be the entirety of the marketing. Whereas we say like, that should just be table stakes. Like you have to be good at distribution. You have to be good at paid. You have to understand how to work with influence. You have to understand how to work on channels outside the bubble. You know, like that's just table stakes. Like the biggest protocols we look at even crypto products like Binance, like they're partnering with Ronaldo. They're doing out of home campaigns with Glovo and Uber eats, right? Like, like they're just, it's like, there's so many different levels to it. So like distribution is just table stakes. Feel free to stop me if I'm absolutely like monologuing. No, no, this is good. So what shouldn't you do? What shouldn't you do is really in vogue right now, but we've learned from like 30 years of crypto history right back to the 1990s that you don't really want this. Like even in the 2000s and post Bitcoin when there's all the color coins, we understood that if you go like community as much hype as possible, straight to a token, you just fall off a cliff. If you think of EOS, you think of Cardano, if you think of many other projects, think of modern day projects in the last nine months, which I won't mention, um it's increasingly obvious. And I think Laudio, which I'm happy to comment on, is the extreme example, right? They only focused on Mindshare. The whole mechanism was a Mindshare based mechanism. It was all about hype, a hyped community, a hype token, and they instantly died. So it is like the most beautiful, eloquent, succinct, real life, you know, receipt of what we're trying to say. And when I was making this deck, like Laudio was happening and I was like, my God, this is so perfect. Like this is so perfect to illustrate, illustrate the points. So in the core, sorry, yes. click on that for a second? I mean, you'll get different views on this, right? Because getting attention to your project is really, really hard. And if you're the squeakiest wheel on the, I don't even know what the saying is, but the squeaky wheel gets all the attention, right? And that's really what Loudio was. It was so squeaky and got tons of attention, but there's... You're right. mean, there was no mechanism behind it. uh And so it fell off a cliff. If there had been like an actual project with an actual product, you know, maybe the outcomes would have been different. But getting attention is clearly very important and really, really hard to get in crypto. And so it's, I guess, what are your views on that? I would challenge the central premise of like attention being important for us. Like attention, yes, but like to whom? So wait, did my audio stop? Cause I was just fidgeting with my AirPods. I'm going to put it over. I'm going to put it over there. Peter warned me by the way, for the viewers, Peter warned me. was like, Shadi, whatever you do, don't fidget with the AirPod case. And I'm just sat here flicking it open. So, so, social addressable market for crypto, especially like inner circle, CT is absolutely tiny. We're speaking five figures. When it comes to builders, we're speaking three to four figures. Core integrators, two to three figures, right? um Maybe capital, liquid capital. Like when we think of really high revenue generating products ah in the ecosystem, like hyper liquid or pump fun, it's like 3000 people generating, you know, 90 plus percent of the volume and therefore the revenue. So when we say like, you need lots of attention, like, is that even true? Is that even true on the crypto consumer level is questionable. Is it true on the builder level? Absolutely not. Um, people who are like out outwardly shilling, you know, it's, it's the elephant in the room is you're shilling for buy pressure. You're shilling for market perception. You're shilling, you know, there's lots of indirect benefits. Like if you have lots of attention, it's easier to fundraise. it's easier to hire, right? There's lots of indirect benefits from being popular, but at the end of the day, these are just aesthetic metrics. They mean nothing if you can't turn it into volume. So the graph in the top right, you know, this was, this is a Barrow Chain's TVL graph. And like, if you look at the stable coin graph, which is arguably more important because their main mechanic is the POL system. You know, they're at like 120 billion, 120 million, sorry. in stable coin TVRs of today, they've lost like over 95 % after stable coin TVL. And they had the most attention, the most mind share and a mechanism specifically built around capturing that liquidity, capturing all that mercenary capital from family offices, liquid funds, who all the BD did the legwork for, but they didn't have to build a capture. They didn't time it properly. If we look at the projects like really blowing up, they're projects that seemingly come out of nowhere. So, you need attention, but it's correlated, not caused by, sorry, your growth is correlated with mind sharing attention, but it isn't caused by mind sharing attention. So one project we work on, BitTensor, they were completely unknown until their mechanic flywheel flew off the handle and then everyone was speaking about them. And then their mind share goes up, but they're not like. getting the whole team to talk about their projects. They're not doing loads and loads of KOL marketing or anything of this nature. It all comes naturally to them. It's all organic, right? And then the third point, which I think is the most important, which most people miss. So, so many nuanced details here with like giving out 1.5 % of your tokens to Kaito. I know you're a Kaito fan. We can discuss that in a second. But if you look at the projects that like really thrive, they're getting a super wide holder base. who have all put their own money and invested early on when it feels like they found a gem. So it doesn't feel like everyone else is talking about them because, you know, in markets, if everyone else is talking about something, that's probably something you want to sell. You want to find the stuff that no one else is talking about the hidden gem. There's something that's undervalued, under indexed. You go and find that. And then the community slowly comes towards that. You find the people that need to be found. ah And that's just kind of what tends to do better. Now there's caveats. Like on this list here, we see Infinex. Infinex has a unit economy. They have switches. They call it switches within their product. They're making money on their TVL if you use the swaps, if you use the integration partners. So they have a unit economy. It's just like a standard funnel, like in Web2. So they're buying uh users. they're buying, you know, lifetime value and they just cost it out. So it's much more simple. But if you look at all the other ones on here, except for DeFi app, if you look at all the other ones on here, they're all ecosystems. So, so what do you need Mindshare for? Why do you need hundreds of millions of impressions when your total addressable market is like hundreds in the early stages? Okay, no, great point. All great points. Let's carry on. Feel free to challenge me, Peter, how I look. No, I do want to hear more around your thoughts around Kaito and attention in general, but let's get through the rest of the slides. I think this is good. So what we teach mechanism design, why crypto observes a power law, it's basically when it takes all and why that's important. Why crypto is more like a scale-free network and not a social graph. know, the attention again, a lot of crypto companies based their marketing on the premise that it's a social graph, it's not a social graph, it's a scale-free network. And we teach that, we teach growth levels, game theory, incentives, things of that nature. a must have for any marketer, but sadly most marketers don't study it. Then of course we have narrative crafting. We go very heavy into distribution. look at not just English distribution. We look at WeChat, Line, KakaoTalk, uh Latin American networks. consider um out of home. We consider uh growth hacking on TikTok, TikTok shop, uh UGC campaigns, things of this nature. So we try to teach what... Most people aren't regurgitating on crypto Twitter. We're not looking at founder led marketing. We're not looking at content marketing or specific tactics. We're kind of considering it all holistically within the media mix, within the marketing mix. Then we go through token, sorry, launches. So all different types of launches. We look at previously considered mechanics like reverse Dutch auctions. Fair launches, launch pads, exchange launches, IDOs, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you get it. As well as how to launch products, more aimed at like ecosystems or consumer facing. And finally, it's a little bit like after meta, but a lot of people when we're doing our focus groups on this said, how do we progress? Like, how do we get better? It feels like I'm already getting capped. You know, I'm at like a decently sized company. There's only four people in the marketing team and I seemingly do everything. Like what's next? We look at mental health. We look at what founders should do to grow. And then we also consider like the timing when you should work with agencies or in-house, which is a big question right now. We say exactly like who should hire in-house and at what point you should start working with agencies. Now you mentioned something in there, you did uh focus groups. Tell us about the research that you did to, I guess, test some of the content. Because that's pretty unique. Most people don't go that, and it's clear that this is like a key learning for the Web2 space that you're bringing to the Web3 space. Tell us about that. So I wanted to make sure that this was useful. And I started just giving the curriculum and kind like the raw data, the words that weren't, you know, packaged in the course with homework and workshops and stuff like that. I just gave the raw stuff to people I know in the ecosystem, marketers, acquaintances. And so what do you think? And they gave me their feedback. And, you know, I would say 80, 90 % of them never even thought about mechanism design. maybe 40 % of them are thinking about narratives and like 100 % of them just want to know how to distribute better. And when I told them like, actually most of the course isn't about distribution, that's just table stakes. would get like, they'd be like, what? And so we go quite tactical and then yeah, like what was surprising to me is we added this entire module in, you see it says extra. We added this entire module in because a lot of people said this is really important to them and that surprised me. Like marketers come into this space and they're like, where do I go? Who should I work for? What role should I have? How do I actually get better? And people were saying craziest shit, like just the wildest shit on how they should get better. So we try to kind of define that, uh define that through words, through data, uh in the actual educational process. That's great. I can move on. think this is almost finished. Yeah, it is. So we go through like patience is the same idea, but essentially you want to work towards, you know, compounding network effects, good governance and being extremely lengthy. That's the end state of like most crypto projects and it takes, you know, years. If you think of growth cycles, you you launch an ecosystem, you have a main net, you then need builders to adopt it. You have to assume that, you know, out of a hundred builders that adopt 90 of them are going to fail in one way or another, right? Which is true. It's just like facts. And then after those 10, you need like one unicorn. You need someone to do something incredibly innovative with the primitives that you offer. And that's when you have the runway effects, but for someone to launch a full business and for you to see the effects of that, it takes time. And sometimes it's completely, you know, chaotic. Like you don't know what you don't know. It's randomness to which lets you win. Like what I say to people is do you really think Solana was sitting around in a meeting room on a zoom call? Like, you know what, we really need to like incentivize a GTO like company to be created so that then we can have like a whole trading ecosystem so that like, we can then create a whole narrative around meme coins. Like, okay, the first meme coin was in 2013. It was Dogecoin. But in 2023, I think we can really bring it back with like a mean coin launch pad. Of course not, right? This was all just random chaos based on primitives. So this is what we stress. You have to play the long game. You have to know for a fact you're going to be alive in 10 years. And you have to plan for those uh long growth cycles, those long reflection periods. Some L1s like Nia were rebranding every six months. just like in the arena testing, testing, testing. know, people say like, Solana is out competing Ethereum. If you go to DeFi Llama and you look at the TVL and Ethereum, the capsule efficiency of the projects, it's just a whole different game, right? It's like a whole different game. So this is what we stress. You have to be patient. You're not trying to rush launches. You're not trying to do these big bang sexes. know, nine out of 10 projects launching these days have like 20 % floats. So like they'll have a $1 billion FDV, like $200 million circulating. And after that $200 million, the team and the VCs have most of it. You know I'm saying? And like, like this type of stuff is, it's just not conducive to these decentralized ecosystems. And that's what we tried to point out. Yeah, so, kinda like. This is for the whole model, cause this is a deck taken from the actual course itself, but we always say history repeats itself. So the module before this, we go through 40 minutes of crypto history from the cypher funk manifesto up until Kaito. And we say, know, history repeats itself. So there's lots that you can learn, go and look at what's happened. A lot of people are coming in post NFT culture, you know, or like nowadays, like in 2025, they're coming in and you'll see like a lot of ignorance. You know, they, they, they're naive to what happened before. Go learn what happened before. You're to save yourself a lot of time and money. Seconds always be mechanism first. If you optimize for mindshare now, no one's going to speak about you in a year unless they reference your failure. There's many such cases. There's a huge graveyard. Third is, you know, this is more about the actual course itself. Right? So if you want to learn, apply it, teach it, get lots of reps in, if you want to become a better marketer, like just constantly implement, don't just consume, don't treat it like Netflix. And finally, patience is everything. It sounds like a great course. I'm looking forward to going through it and learning. I I'm learning a lot already with the 60-30-10 approach because you're right. mean, it's become a meme at this point that distribution is everything. Distribution is super important, but what people especially in crypto miss is the mechanism design piece and then the narrative piece. And the holistic approach, think, is really what's one of the most important kind of key components that people kind of forget. The things have to work together. You you bring up your, the Solana example. I don't remember when it was, but it was very, very early in the Solana days. I remember my, a friend of mine led the, he was one of the community managers and he also was the first person to lead the Solana hackathon. like with their first hackathon. And I remember his name's Austin. He told me, I asked him, hey, how's it going? And he told me the numbers that they were getting with like number of submissions and applications and how many hackers were involved. And I had to take a step back because at that point I had not been involved in anything Solana related, eh but had been very deep in the Ethereum community, right? And I was so surprised at the numbers. Like they were like so many people actively involved in the hackathon. That was the first indication that something, there's something special going on that I did not know about. I should probably like try to learn more of what's happening here. And I think that was a really good indication that, you know, at the time Solana wasn't getting any mind share, but there was a lot of developer activity. And I think that's a signal, clear signal. And you're probably getting the same thing with the BitTensor group um community, lots of builders. um Now there's a lot of mindshare, but it's the builders that came first. And so that might be a clue um as to like which ecosystems might actually do well for the longterm. It's like builders first. And then the mindshare and attention kind of comes organically. versus like a contrived approach where it's like you try to get like superficial attention, which I think is what one of your main kind of arguments against Kaido and kind of attention kind of leaderboard type things is it's like feels very contrived and superficial, right? Cause like underneath it all is just kind of like cotton candy. It's like fluff. There's no, it's not nutrient dense at all. Is that a good kind of summary or what am I missing? You know, I describe it like George Soros sponsoring protests in like Eastern bloc countries, and then they'll all get driven in from a village. They're all wearing the same outfits and have the same banners and saying the same thing and just getting paid for it. oh That's what it feels like to me, you know, like... When you're doing CT specific, like now that Kaito is branching out to TikTok and Meta and YouTube, like it starts to become a lot more interesting. uh Because now you branch outside of CT. As it currently stands, like just inside of CT, it is a, you know, a colloquial circle joke, right? You're all just shitting to one another, but you can see straight through it because anyone can see who's on the leaderboard. And all of a sudden you start speaking about this new project just because you want to get paid by it. And I would love to see the sell rates of the airdrops for like as as kaito holders. ah I think it's a little bit more like dangerous. So how to put it, like crypto when I joined was inherently nerdy and it's migrating into a popularity contest. Initially, it was a popularity contest by capital and capital would follow what it thought was the best, but that wasn't always true. So if you remember back to like EOS days, 2018, they raised $4 billion. If you think about Terra Luna and hashed, there's so many debacles, but people get it wrong. that the smart money gets it wrong. Now turning it into like a share popularity contest uh feels like a mistake. Like putting an emphasis on content creators, short form content, things of this nature. When your true ecosystems just doesn't seem real, right? If you're moonshot and you're, you know, selling shit coins and you're onboarding experiences for MoonPay, you can just use ApplePay and you get a hundred bucks in Solana and you go shitcoining. Sure, go sell it to kids who have been brainwashed by loot boxes and gamification and want to gamble on coins and be the 0.1 % to make it. Like that's a good method. Attention makes a ton of sense. If you're like trying to convince full grown adults, mostly men, right? It's like over 85 % men in their 30s, 40s and 50s to go build a sustainable business. right, a real revenue driving business or something that they can go raise a bunch of money on in your ecosystem by doing like Twitter threads from, you know, influencers or micro influences on Twitter. I don't think it's compelling. I don't think it's compelling. And I think the data shows that like a lot of these high mind share pre TG launches coming through that leaderboard, they don't have that traction. You can go to the dune dashboards. You can look at defile llama. It drops off a cliff and they lose the mind share. I would say there's like a caveat. So the caveat is like if you're infinite or defy app, it's the best thing ever because it's just a new funnel and you know, have a cost per acquisition, right? And you know, your lifetime value of a user and you have referral systems, right? And so it makes a ton of sense. But if you're targeting like 500 people around the world, 500 potential entities, like I'm not sure. Yeah, I agree with you. The cost acquisition piece, when you actually have a user and when your user is not a developer, I think that's kind of the key. And so um maybe, Kaido is really good for kind of like B to C projects. B to D, definitely, probably not. um And especially for projects that have... uh you know, some kind of revenue generating flywheel, then you can have a cost acquisition, lifetime value, know, actual metrics. But that would be a very interesting chart to see, um you know, a Dune dashboard relative to like Mindshare, something like that. Yeah, well, mean, if you go to, do you have Qyto Pro? I do. don't know if you can pull it up in the background, but if you go to hyperliquids on Kaito Pro, you'll see in like 2024, when they had the highest mind share, their price action is the worst. And it's when they had a debacle. And so the sentiment goes really down, the mind share is really high, and the price action just like falls off a cliff. So like high mind share in a vacuum, you you also want good sentiment to go along with it and Yeah. for consumer priorities. So there's like other things to take into account here. But ultimately, like it's just pockets, like again, like for crypto specifically, but even similar business models like iGaming or casinos, you know, it's the whales that you drive all the revenue, right? That's who you get VIP status for. When you go mega long tail, if you're going super mass market and you're onboarding like literally millions, tens of millions of people, Sure, do it. Telegram doesn't even appear on the Kaito Mindshare boards, but it has a billion daily active users. It has the most distribution out of any crypto product. Teva doesn't appear on the Mindshare leaderboard, but it prints more money than BlackRock. Binance doesn't appear on the Mindshare leaderboard. Binance is advertising on Formula One. on billboards with Ronaldo on your grocery store bags on your delivery food bags. Like that's the distribution you want. Those are the campaigns you want to do. But UGC is great. Like we use UGC. No, no, really good point. And my other criticism of Kaido is it's heavily imbalanced towards attention. And we know what gets attention. know, attention is like if there's a uh Twitter spat or some kind of fight that gets a lot of attention. But high quality threads typically don't. And so there's a very kind of imbalanced approach. And that's been my criticism. And I've told you who this that it's, I've called Kaido, it's like the page rank of like 2010. And back then, you know, you could just, you could get backlinks into your website, into your pages, and it would get ranked really highly. And I gained the whole thing, right? And it was very easy to game and I made a lot of money doing that. And it's the same thing is happening today. It's like, but instead of backlinks, you've got, you know, the Kaido leaderboard. And um we know like what, you can engineer it, but what gets left behind is like high quality threads. And so what did Google have to do? It introduced Penguin and then Panda, which then, you know, slashed, you know, a lot of these websites and a lot of these websites were deranked or became like just disappeared um because they discovered that all these backlinks were just, either bought for or engineered somehow. And um at some point, Kaido's going to have some kind of reckoning that they've really ignored quality. And it's overindexed on attention. So who knows? I mean, you know, I shit on Kaito a lot publicly, but like to give them credit publicly, they took, you know, I mean, like if you consider like, okay, so first of all, like InfoFi, what about, you know, Nansen and these companies came way before, offer arguably like potentially way more values, might be debatable, Delphi, different companies offering data, you know, information, um but Kaito extremely, boring technology, mostly focused on founders, researchers and marketers, very high priced, high friction, single metric black box. They don't explain what happens. They convince a lot of people to go and buy it. They created an entire meta, like you who coined an entire meta, which is what we speak about in our course. It's like the best case scenario where you create a meta such that all your competitors, you know, a whole industry tries to compete against you. So now we see Cookie trying to compete against Kaito. Everyone else is putting InfoFi in their bio. So like that's like the pinnacle of success in marketing and crypto. You who did that. He combined B2B with consumer. So then he introduced the apps and point systems and crypto like metrics, but on an individual level. So he gets everyone involved, including KOLs, which act as his distribution mechanism. They spend nothing on ads. It's all for free. Then he did a huge token launch after all the momentum, after the revenue, after all of this. Then he did a token launch, which launched a 10 figure FTV, pretty epic. And he built in mechanics to bury that liquidity, ST Kaito, airdrops from other projects, right? This is like pinnacle of crypto marketing. It's like so fucking smart. It's brilliant. Yeah. top of that, he goes one step further when he starts integrating projects like Loudio. So he has like network effects at the builder level. Go and take my mind share primitive and go build something interesting like noise. Right. It's like, so like our course, like if you look at Kaito, like it's actually like our course teaches you go and do what Kaito did as a business. You know what I'm saying? Like it's, it's, perfection. It's absolute perfection. would say the only misstep was they have a, they have a, a downward flywheel. So for example, if companies stop paying for mindshare and airdrops, then ST Kaito becomes less valuable. People on stake, people sell, and you have a rapid cascading set off, which can be really dangerous for projects like that. Right. And they try to force usage of Kaito through payment. So, can pay for the service through Kaito, but that won't be useful. The main use is going to be a state Kaito, but yeah, I can give them a lot of credit on the business side. It's like absolutely genius. No, absolutely genius. You know, one other failure mode that I see that I haven't really seen anyone talk about, but there's a lot of pre TGE projects that may not actually have a TGE at some point, or maybe like a lot later. um And, or if they do have a TGE, it's like going to be a failure and they may not even airdrop to, you know, to all the, the yappers, like they said they would. And so, when you have projects like that that make a promise but then don't keep it, like, and that hasn't happened yet, but I can envision, I can see that happening at some point, then there's gonna be some negative sentiment and some drama, um which of course will create more attention and then it'll just continue to feed the beast. But the Yappers who were on those leaderboards, you know, will have a bad taste um and will, I think, reduce some trust. I hear that a lot of marketers are turning against giving away percentages of your token supply for me is like a big no-no. I wish there was some protections for projects almost against their own ignorance to give away one to 2 % of their total token supply over a three to nine month period. For me, that's wild. Honestly, that's pretty wild. Products are doing it. Yeah, Well, Shad, this is cool, man. I'm excited for the Giga method, Rare Minds. Any last words you want to share with the audience before we get off? Just curious, what do you think is gonna be, so now we're seeing the revenue meta, the club meta. ah What's Peter's takes? I know you're a big observer. I know you're also getting your hands dirty. do you think is coming next? And if it is the revenue meta, how will this change the industry? I'm very excited for the revenue meta. And I hope it actually stays because I think to me it signals two things. We're growing up as an industry. That we're actually recognizing that revenue is an important thing. And that all these blockchains are actually businesses. These applications are all businesses. And I think we need a wholesale kind of rethinking about what we are doing in blockchain, in crypto. And start using language like business owner. I mean, think about it. If you launch a layer two, you are a business owner. You're trying to grow your community. You're trying to grow users. You're trying to grow your application. You're trying to make money. Like you're an entrepreneur. You're a business owner. And so I think just rethinking and it's a subtle shift, right? Like you go from like founder to business owner. It should change the way you approach things. And I think that's very healthy. And I think, and I've had this conversation with others in the Ethereum ecosystem. I think one of the biggest missteps the Ethereum Foundation made was it went too heavily on the research side and didn't recognize that that layer two founders are actually business owners. And once you become a business owner, your primary objective is to grow your project, to grow your company. And an accruing value to Ethereum becomes like takes a kind of a backseat. So it's no longer about, it's no longer like what's good for Ethereum. It's about what's good for my project, my company. And I think kind of people failed to see that. And I learned this from when I was actually part of a layer two project. And I noticed that the founder was a huge Ethereum. And then the second we launched Mainnet, it was all about growing applications, users to these applications, user experience. was growing revenue. He didn't care about Ethereum at that point. I think we just, as an industry, just kind of failed to see that. So anyway, revenue meta, very, very positive. think shifting our thinking to being entrepreneurs, builders, and business owners, huge, huge unlock, I think. And I think we'll change kind of how we behave. So it's no longer just about like developers or builders. It's like we're actually building businesses. um And it shows that we're just maturing as an industry. And I think it's hugely positive. Hear hear. You know, a lot of people think that like a theorem is just so hands off. It's and it's like a huge call for it's a call for it now, but you use the word business owner. And I remember back in the day, back in our days, Peter, like you can never say that, was like straight to jail, do not pass go. Um, and now it's like a little bit gloves off, right? Like we used the word revenue, for example, you could never use the word revenue before you couldn't even speak about it. There was no revenue back to a token. That's a Dividend that doesn't pass the Howie test, you're a security and unregistered security distributing it globally. So that's like a big change, right? It's really interesting to see that happen. Yeah, I love it. And I hope it stays. It's a really, really good unlock. cool, man. Well, Shad, you're doing good stuff and appreciate you sharing this resource as a free resource to the community for all marketers, Web2 and Web3. I'm going to be diving in and learning, um and I'm sure many others will. So we appreciate you doing this for the community. Peter, you're being too humble. You have nothing to lied. You're already at the forefront. This will just be a... The 60, 30, 10 stuff is amazing. like most people, like in the focus groups, just, did. I mean, most people think it's like 90 % distribution, right? And forget the rest. So it's, I think there's just things like that, just a different perspective can help us rethink kind of our approach and help us improve. And I appreciate you sharing this free resource for all of us. Well, thank you for giving me my distribution. Cheers, man. Cheers.