Harry Horsfall, co-founder and CEO of Flight3, welcome to the show. Awesome. I'm glad to be here. Thanks for having me, Peter. We are enjoying a very rare sunny day in London. oh London ah six months ago and had a blast. Actually, it was probably longer. ah My wife is a big Taylor Swift fan and uh took her to Wembley to see Taylor. It was a lot of fun. I am not a Taylor, I am not a Swiftie, but she is. I'm just supporting her. ah But London is a beautiful place, wonderful. uh Tell us about uh so flight three uh Let's get into flight three in a minute, but would love to hear kind of like how you got into crypto and in kind of your your views and kind of where we are in the market and you work with lots of projects One here kind of like the you know what you're seeing in the space Yeah. So, mean, I think that to take that question in two parts, what we're seeing right now is, is irrationally, the markets are irrationally negative for how positive the market is. If you look at, um, the requests we're getting as an agency, they're growing up. The market is starting to understand what marketing is. We're starting to see You know, if we take credit cards and payment cards, you know, there's about 100 are launching every week at the moment, you know, different cards. And that's one of those moments where marketing can really help, isn't that? There's always a big gap between if you have to tell someone, you know, I spent a long time working, selling an exchange and on a wallet product. If you have to educate people what Bitcoin is, what a wallet is. It's a lot of your marketing dollars and spend and ideas time just to educate why I need a wallet. What is a wallet? I've got a wallet in my pocket. No, no, no, this is digital wallet. You store coins. So we're seeing a lot of products that are almost ready to start talking about on their right to win versus just what they are. And so to go back to the first point of the question, for me, I've been lucky enough to stumble upon crypto, I guess, when I was at uni in 2011. and messed around with Bitcoin without really knowing what it was. And I was running a music festival actually at the time. And as the music festival scaled, they actually make less money. So I'm 21, 22, and I was going to work for ABC. I ran a, we were running a tech conference. had a sort of a Bitcoin panel and a Bitcoin event part of it. And we booked a guy called Paul Gordon. who made a coin scram, which was the OG Bitcoin meetup and probably knew some of the smartest very early Bitcoiners. And I was just like, wow, this is it. I cannot believe I've just discovered this. This is like, cause when you've already used something and I think we'll come to a short touchback on this in our marketing later. Like when you've used something and you like kind of have gone through the motion of making a wallet, putting Bitcoin in it, it's a lot easier to gauge in your head. didn't actually work out well. What is a suey token? How do I put it in a wallet if you've never done that? So obviously Mount Gox happened. I was like, right, I'm an idiot. I've just chewed off them. Everyone's here that this is the future and carried on working in marketing for the startups, know, big companies like Facebook and Betfair and Paddy Power, where I learned a lot about like user acquisition. And if we look in a lot of what Gambling marketing and exchange marketing are quite similar in the sense the lifetime value of the customer is very high. Once you're on board into a Binance or a Coinbase, unless they don't have the tokens you want or unless they block a payment method that you want, it's unlikely that or they put their fees too high. It's unlikely that you're gonna leave once you're in their funnel. then cut our teeth in helping. ScaleLuno, which is kind of like the Coinbase of Africa. So very, very early Coinbase, very easy to use exchange for the masses to onboard. So I spent a lot of time educating people. This is what a is. And you know, in South Africa and Nigeria and Malaysia, they're some of the most regulated. And there's a real use case there. Sometimes when we're in London, a pound is a pound overnight. You know, the RAND really suffers with inflation. They've got capital controls in their country. So was a really, really easy use case. And then, you know, I joined when there was 30, 40 people and there was about a thousand when I left. Mid-COVID, I think, wanting to go deeper into using, you know, that entry point is a very exciting point. I think there's a lot more to it. And so I wanted to jump a little bit deeper. No, let me, um maybe we can double click on your time with that exchange in Africa. Tell us what challenges you saw, or I guess what are some of the things that you saw that most people outside of Africa do not see? You mentioned a couple of things around capital controls. Tell us about the opportunity there that maybe many of us don't realize. The opportunities are so high. you think about, there's the obvious one is banking, banking the unbanked, you know, like for something to be better, it needs to be 10 times better. In many ways in England, Revolut and Monzo are great. Revolut even has crypto now. And most of us have a passport. Most of us have a fixed address. And so most of us can get a bank account and also brands like Santander, HSBC invest in trying to get a Londoner to get a bank account. A lot of the first part of a bank account is like sunk costs before you eventually buy insurance or a mortgage or all of these things. There's a whole segment of people in that part of the world that are unbanked, don't have the correct documents, and within seconds they can open a crypto wallet and that can then allow them to freelance on the internet, become a graphic designer, become a writer, and access to this whole world of labour. was uh really interesting point, banking the unbanked. I think the second point is is the capital controls and moving money in and out of country securely, you know, and the fees. then the third point is obviously a lot of my team hold their payment in dollars because they're worried about the, you know, the changing of the price of the rand, the pounds, and they'd rather be paid in a global currency that's a little bit more stable. So I think those three points. were really interesting. One of the biggest challenges we faced at Luno was the founder was, you know, rightly so really believed that this was going to become a regulated space. problem with what we faced in 17, 18, 19, even 20 was that there was no regulation. So if you're trying to be really regulated and there's no regulation to follow, you end up just going around and around. so, you know, the approach Binance took was well, damn it, we'll pay the cost. Let's get as big as we can and then we'll pay the consequences. And we saw that with CZ obviously, but if you want to be regulated, I think one of the really early challenges we faced was going round and round in circles. you uh know, when you work in gambling marketing, or if you work in FinTech, you'd say, you know, APY 22%, this is a financial product, all of your money's at risk. And it's like, well, do we have to put that on our marketing? or do we not? We don't even believe this is real. I think those early challenges about communication and how we do that, it's quite good. One time we got a little bit of trouble putting a joke on a bus ad, but yeah, no, this was actually in London by the FCA. I think that early stage of... Are we allowed to say this? Are we not allowed to say this? know, but personally, think like a risk warning is really important. You know, like it's, if you, you, if your defy protocols offering a thousand percent APY, or if you're investing into a TGE or an IDO and it can go a thousand X is all probably higher chances going to zeros. You know, there's, there's, there's that, that risk tolerance that the right people need to take at the right time. based on what they want to do and I think giving that information is positive. Yeah, I think having those disclosures, especially in light of very little regulation and or guidance. We face this in the United States, right? There is no regulation. There's very little guidance. And um there is a lot of uh really retribution against lots of crypto projects that were trying to do the right thing, yet they still got penalized for trying to do the right thing. Definitely. I mean, it's an exciting time in the US though, isn't it? Like I was seeing the mayor of New York is, know, growing up in the space, I was sent all of the fud, you know, 2017, India's banning it, 2018, China's kicked all the miners out, da-da-da. It was just, it was negative, negative news. And then what happened is Switzerland entered the race and they were like, we're gonna lead this. And then Portugal were like, oh, come to us. And then you had Dubai and UAE and Abu Dhabi be like, we're interested. And then suddenly the US are like, hang on a moment guys, can you come back over here? So I think I'm seeing a lot of my clients who were, mean, where people are based is such a, in a global world movie. I mean, we're all on a event tour half a year, but where people are based and where they are is interesting. But before everyone was trying not to be in the US. And suddenly I've seen the shift this year of people just back in the US, they're going to support you. And it's very interesting how, how, you know, Denver last year, was like, this is how you get a UAE license. We're all going to UAE. This year at Denver, it's like, come back, come back. That was a really interesting shift in a year. you're bringing up a really interesting point where there's really a contrast in sentiment with crypto Twitter feels very bearish. People are down and they're depressed. Yet, from a regulatory perspective, we've never been in this space before where everything seems to be moving in the right direction. And there's so many positive signals that are happening yet you're not really, I'm not. really seeing you know, in crypto Twitter, what do you think is the cause for the stark contrast? it's insane. And I spent a lot of time talking about this and thinking about this. And, know, it's so obvious to me what's happening. Firstly, retailer broke. Secondly, Bitcoin is at all time high, give or take 2%. You know, like I think we're 103, all time high is 107. But mainstream mentions of Bitcoin is at the lowest point. It's been for a long time on Google Trends. So what we're seeing is we're seeing Bitcoin is absolutely rocketing, but your Uber driver is not talking about it. Your best friend from college is not shilling you Bitcoin because they don't have any, they're not investing at the moment themselves. So I think what that means to me and my interpretation of that is that like Michael Saylor, governments, UAE and other banks are buying a lot of Bitcoin and they've got their head around it. You know, the early movers of the institutional world. They've got their head around it and they're like, oh my God, this is mental. They're going through what we went through in 2013. They've just got more money than us. Instead of going in with $2,000, they're going in with $2 billion. But if they've got $2 trillion, mean, you know, these are the grownups with like, they use the term AUM and they've got like billions or trillions of dollars, assets under management. And so what I think is, and what we're feeling from Crypto Twitter is, People that have been here a long time, we've got a little bit of fatigue. If you've been working on your project and you did a big raise in the 21 cycle, you've been running on that money for quite a long time now. ETH's back to, I mean, it's actually surged in last two weeks, but ETH was basically that price, you 1.7, 1.8. So in that five years, it's kind of stayed the same. That affects a lot of the DeFi and the protocols on there. So I think there's a little bit of fatigue of the people that have been... Um, and, know, anyone who's listening and who builds their own projects knows how full on is managing a community and trying to get it to work and trying to find that product market fit. So I think, I think there's, I think that, I think there's that aspect. Then I think there's the aspect of like, we almost got through the no men. We almost got through Gary Gensler, SEC, the SEC actually lost the case, the ripple before Trump was even on the scene. You know, he built, he beat them up. That was a very, very bullish point. But then Trump came in with this kind of optimism, but then he was so irrational with all his tariffs that global companies were cutting their teams, preparing. Markets don't like uncertainty. I feel like, sorry, I feel like the uncertainty of the macroeconomics, because we're now a$3 trillion market. Mm-hmm. or take and that's without the exchanges, et cetera. But I feel like that's big enough that it's now affected by the macro. But if I look below that, what I'm seeing is I'm seeing stable coin adoption happening rapidly. if we look at a company like Stripe, know, these companies, they've already got users, you know, they've already got all the contacts. It takes five years to get a conversation going with a global corporate. They've already got all these sort of this network and this thing. I think the adoption, I guess with stable coins, don't need to, when I was at DevConnect, I asked 20 of the leading people in ETH what they thought ETH meant and trying to edit that video together was such a wide video because it's so many, it's endless, infinite possibilities. Whereas when it comes to stable coins, dollars are digital most of the time anyway, not that many people are holding million dollars in cash, they're holding it uh on a computer screen saying they've got it, they get yield and the fact that they understand that is a much easier adoption curve that they can start with. Let's transition to Flight 3. This is your company, your agency. um Tell us who you serve and uh the types of services you guys provide. And I'd love to hear kind of what you're seeing, what the needs are from some of these crypto projects. Yeah, definitely. So, so flight three, so we're a full service web three marketing agency and our goal really is to help you from, from naught to one. And it completely depends on, on, on the project. do a lot of like community building, which can be across, you know, events, um, online and then, um, you know, sort of growth and PR. Um, and it's been, it's been really interesting as we've grown over the. So we just had our fourth year, is, it's not long in Web2 agency land, but four years in Web3, it feels like a lifetime. I love the meme. Thank you. So there's lots of different aspects, you know, depending, because each project is very different. But I think our core goal is, you know, I've used a lot of Web2 agencies. London has a lot of very good agencies. when I was growing up and I was using agencies and we had the budget, we were talking to these guys and we're like, so we're going to be using MetaMask. And a lot of marketing is making things as simple as possible. And if you're talking to an agency that doesn't understand what you're doing, it's a lot of time to explain to them and a lot of the things of being on track because Web2... Web 2 marketing, Web 3 marketing, is there that much of a difference? Really, it's just similar skill sets just transferred into Web 3. So with Solana, really, really exciting project, you know, it's an L1, similar to Ethereum, but you know, there's a lot of settlements, but they were an amazing, amazing project to work with when they were, you know, we started like in the heart of the bear market, 22. Mm. mid SBF token, the tokens of nine or $10. And they really wanted to double down on the builders in, in, that time. So a lot of these, um, these big, uh, foundations, have a lot of capital then there because they've, they've raised a lot and they need to get it to their ecosystem. So more that to build on their, on that thing, but it's obviously very hard to give out capital. As we know, with governments, governments want to give out money, but they don't want to give it to bad actors who just abusing the system. So In that project, we worked on something called Super Team. Super Team is like a really localized hub and helped launch Germany and the UK and found the lead, helped build the websites, helped make all the branding look really sharp and helped kickstart that community. And it's been amazing watching them go on and win prizes. You're building all your local communities in a way that allows, you know, when you're building, can you... Can you sense check my code? Can you vibe code with me? Can you connect me to an audit firm? That was an amazing project to be part of. Let's talk about that because I've heard that. So I've interviewed lots of projects on Solana. And I know many of the folks at the foundation. I've heard one of the, I've heard it over and over again that SuperTeam is one of the key differentiators of the Solana ecosystem because they meet developers where they are in their local communities. They have local support and they're very focused on Like they view builders not just as developers, but actual business people and entrepreneurs. And I think that's quite unique versus let's say the Ethereum ecosystem, doesn't really view developers as business builders or entrepreneurs as much. But let's talk about how you guys help build the super team kind of structure and organization. Because I think developer marketing is very hard. Super Team seems to be a model that works. So maybe take us through kind of the thinking and how you guys went about building that with Solana. Yeah. So I think if we, if we think you're right, developer community building is really hard. And if we look at like the global event circuit, which I spend a lot of time on, it's great. It's really fun. We just got back from token. It's for, it's a mental four days. isn't that. And I think what the, what, what the localized super teams do, one, they provide really fast grounds to get you started. two grand, 5,000, 15,000, you know, they try to get that out within 24 hours. So if you've got an idea, can see that's not, that's not gonna be enough to run a project, live your life. It's enough to give you that kickstarter. The second thing is actually, who's mastermind of it all really understood the value of the localization, you know, if, you know, in the UK, what they've done really well is they've got a uh weekly meet on a Friday where everyone can come and start to build that rapport. then the third part is really building that community of people that you really, really begin to know. And it takes a long time. at the start, mean, I think they're up to 24 now. And so it's almost like you can go anywhere and be like, I'm super team and there will be someone there. But at its heart, it is true. And Solana really believe that it's the builders that they don't know what they're to build yet, but they know they can build something on Solana and their job is to try and make it as possible, as easy as possible. And that being said, the main problem of foundation, m the foundations are quite small, aren't they, for how big the company's worth and they're quite new. the main problem a foundation suffers with is that if you are really hot, how do they know that you're hot compared to the other thousand people that have messaged them? So having these, they're almost like in-house, in-house KOL, I know it's not a great word, but in-house celebrities that are, know, Cap in the UK is the UK lead and he's Mr. Solana of the UK. And so... He's almost been given the ability to go to the UK, help the projects and he's really good at that, but also be like, my God, you're the project. I'm going to connect you to Jupiter. I'm going to connect you to the foundation. then in one moment, if you're building like a Dex aggregator plug, you know, plugin or whatever you're building something to help reduce the costs of transactions. Very niche. But if you talk, if you have three convos with the right people quickly. Yeah. Who is this again? Mr. Solana in the UK. Who is that? a guy called Cap. so yeah, he was part of the agency and then he, he, he, as the project got bigger, he joined full time. So I think, I think one of the things about something like a super team is it, and I think this is about any marketing, when you're deciding whether you want an agency or an in-house team, really you always going to need both because an agency can do 95 % brilliant work, but an agency is busy and has lots of different clients and it has expertise. But really, why Superteam does so well is they find that Alex Scott, the guy in Dubai, is doing a fabulous job. They find someone who is so passionate about their cause and really is that community leader. And if you think of how much a KOL costs per tweet, suddenly you've got a KOL for a whole month. you know, whole year just working and working and posting and going to the events. And what it gives it, gives you that real localized effect of if something needs to be fast tracked up and it's like a game changer, it can be. Um, and then of course it's the support and getting ready for these hackathons. Cause as I say, all of these foundations, especially at the start have a lot of capital that they need to allocate to make their ecosystem run. We saw, we saw with. I worked on another big foundation and they gave out lots of grants, but they were backing startups. And we know startups are tough. Just because you're building in web three doesn't mean that we're going to change the nine out of 10 startups don't work. Now, you know, that main person in the specific geography, the, for the, the super team structure, is that person hired on full time? Got it. Okay. No, that, that, that kind of structure makes a lot of sense. um When, when you're thinking about community building, you know, one of the biggest challenges that, that projects have, and every project has this, you know, they want to grow brand awareness, right? They want, they want to be known. um And so it first starts out with engagement, but then turning engagement into a real community is really hard. does Flight 3 think about that? And how have you helped projects with that? Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think there's a, there's a big, there's a big challenge, especially when we look at some of our earlier projects that they, they're talking to top VCs, tier one VCs, tier two VCs, and they need these metrics to be taken seriously. And so they want to growth hack them as quickly as possible, vanity metrics are vanity metrics. If you're, know, if you go back to bet fair days and we're looking at like, you know, how many, how many people are doing bets or Aluno are, Aluno are magic number was, you we got someone to KYC, we've someone to deposit, we've got someone to do their first trade, doing their third trade is a really far way down the funnel. If you think of joining a discord, that's really high. I mean, you're off the internet and you're in a channel, but you're a long way from connecting a wallet, depositing, you know, playing on a protocol. I think, um, the community aspect needs to be a community. know, a community is not all of you join my telegram so I can then sell you on NFT. Like, community needs to be give and take, you know, and as people get to know each other, you know, very lucky, like, I've been building communities for long time. And Music Festival is a real community because you've got all of the different people from the volunteers, checking tickets, to the sound people. I think, I think in the web three community grows building your own little community. that's where picking the right chain for you to live in is very important. You know, if you are really into gaming, AVAX could be a great community base for you to join, you know, or Suey at the moment and they're doing a lot in the gaming and they've got their new console coming out. And I'm seeing a lot of gaming people really. Bond in that community and, and community is, you know, other. Other projects are a good person to have in your community. Like how can you collab with them? You know, there's obviously going to be, you know, the KOLs, the, you know, the YouTubers, the people with reach. They're a wonderful fuel to your fire. In, in web two, we, we web two, we do Google ads or we do fake Instagram and fake meta ads. A meta ad for a new decks on a chain no one's heard of when they haven't got a Coinbase is a really far away. place to engage someone. thinking about where people hang out, you know, we love Reddit. There's a lot of, there's a lot of things happening on Reddit. Obviously we love Twitter, but we know the Twitter audience is a bit of an echo chamber. Definitely playing around with TikTok. And then of course, IRL. So, so I run ZB live, which is UK's flagship web three event. And we have trying to get four and a half thousand people this year. As we go into the fifth year. There's a real community of people that have been every year, their projects have changed, their job roles have changed, but they're all coming together. it's, think, you know, and, and, and, and in another, in another world, you know, I remember we were told like, is about, you know, you've got a marketing strategy and a digital marketing strategy, which is basically above the line and below the line. And now most people are going through the line. And I think, I think it's very, very similar in web three, you've got, you know, above the line and below the line. And now we want to take it through the line. It's yeah. No, I hear you. I'm talking with a couple of projects where they're kind of viewing a contrast between, um know, one project that I'm speaking with, have a product that meets the needs of kind of the web to audience enterprises. So it's a B2B play, but they also have a token. And so they're trying to meet the needs of the crypto audience. so what we're talking about is what if we approach this like holistically, because what excites the crypto audience could be the very same things that excite the enterprises. And so like, what are those things? And so there's this kind of reconciling kind of approach that I'm trying to take. You mentioned in passing that you guys love Reddit. And I've met with many growth leaders that really struggle with the fact that Twitter is, it is an echo chamber. but that's where a lot of crypto people hang out. And a lot of these growth leaders are looking for other channels to reach audiences. why do you guys love Reddit? And tell us kind of maybe some strategies that the audience could learn from. Yeah, I think a lot of people ask me what channel they should live in. Should they live in discord? Should they live in telegram? Should they live in Twitter? Should they be on Reddit? Should they be on TikTok? And I think the core thing is to pick where you're to be, and especially when you're a small team, do it really well. Each channel, the content needs to be really different. You know, what you post on LinkedIn is not a copy and paste to Twitter. It's not a copy and paste to Reddit. know, like Reddit is not a place for shilling. Reddit is a place like especially when was some of the developer outreach is a place to talk in depth, add value, build, build confidence and slowly start to capture mind share. Um, and I think, you know, there's definite certain channels where big developers and core core people hang out. Um, I agree with you. Twitter is a real echo chamber chamber. The amount of like real people on there are all are all in there. And if we look at like kind of what's happening at the moment with this sort of no new capital coming into the space, it is a bit of like this narrative's hot and everyone's cycling out of the old night, you know, it is kind of going and trying to try to capture your mind share. And, you know, I think you touched on a really tricky point. You know, we worked on quite a few real world asset projects, you know, and some of them are still going and doing doing really well. with love to see V chain and it's sort of resurgence come back. And you know, they've got a meek license, but for a long time, real world assets are quite boring in the sense that it's real. So the yield is going to be real. it's been, you know, and especially in 2021, when you're like, everything's giving crazy returns and it's going to rip. It's hard for a real world asset to rip in the same way. Cause it's real, isn't that? And so I think in, in, in, and then the second point on that is We all kind of have ADHD a little bit. I actually do have ADHD, I do think that as a crypto audience, engaging your audience when building a blockchain takes a long time. they're building this tech that actually works, takes a long time. if you are building that for an enterprise, keeping a retail, keeping a token live and interesting and not just straight down is very tricky and they are, you know, they are different strategies aren't they? Because it is really, really hard, especially in this market for tokens to go up. And I think that really affect, can really affect a community. That being said, your strongest community do come back and we love building, you your hundred core fans, your hundred core users. How are we bringing them in? How are they becoming an ambassador? Ambassador programs are one of these things that are really good, but they take a long time. You know, they are not your bang, smash it on and go. But if you, if you build a good ambassador program, it's a great core for the community. Yeah, in ambassador programs that you've seen in the past, or maybe you've had a hand in helping to build, do you continue to incentivize, or I guess how have ambassadors been incentivized to continue supporting the project? Have you maybe tell us a range of kinds of ways to incentivize them? Yes, I think there's a mixture. There's some people that are like heavy token holders and big believers in the project and want to help. There's certain people that are incentivized by token bounties, which I think is a great way. And there's certain people that, yeah, they just really enjoyed it and they've enjoyed being selected as an investor. It's a good first role for someone in crypto, it? You know, starting to get into a community, getting on the inner side. Um, I think they're a long play. think they're a play that you need a lot of resource to manage a hundred people. know people don't do what you want. You know, when I said now company server, I'm like, please send your feedback. I know I need to go through the same 12 people to make sure they do, you know, it's, it's a lot of work to manage them. But I think if you get a good community of ambassadors and you give them roles and you have them opportunities to feedback on the product. You know, I think a lot of, a lot of people in web three don't, because a lot of it's been so early, they don't ask their core users what they want. You know, and, um, I just finished reading the Netflix. No rules. He was saying how one, one dev is better than a thousand bad devs because they think about what the real problem that you're trying to solve is. And it's not building what they were going to build is actually flipping the solution. You can do it with two lines of code on the weekend and get the problem. you want to solve. I think while we're still figuring this all out and you know, lot of the problems that we didn't know any, we didn't, we didn't know what we didn't know. If we remember 2014, 15 coin market cap, was like Bitcoin forked, forked and forked and Litecoin, know, Bitcoin, you know, there's lots of forks and the same thing. And then obviously we had Ethereum come along and then we've got zero knowledge proof and the L2s and trying to get all of that. to click, we're still kind of figuring out how that works and I think understanding how that's actually going to work and doing that with your core community quickly. They actually love to help, people do love to help. Of course, you then want to listen and no one likes to give feedback and then not get involved. Yeah. In one of your answers earlier, you shared uh a number of milestones. You really described a funnel where someone joined a Discord and then you connect their wallet. When you're talking to clients and potential projects, many of them, from my experience, in Web2, it's very easy to define what the funnel looks like, what awareness looks like, what the next stage looks like, what call to actions are. In Web3, it's less clear. So how do you help clients figure out where they are in terms of what funnel structure makes the most sense for them? Yeah, because if we look at the funnel, it's completely new funnel because I know you're I know, I know, I don't know where you live. I don't know your name's Pete. I wouldn't know your name. Maybe I would know your name in Web2. But I would know your your age or demographic could work out your salary based on where you're living. You know, we're interacting with a lot of other than unknown wallets, know, on on chain, very, very limited information. And I think that's And I don't know if you've got 19 wallets or one wallet, know, so I think, I think understanding that funnel. we started to use K8O AI, which has really helped for mind share. We're using cookie three, we're using Safari. Um, we got a new tool called grow three. So we kind of built out our tech tech stack on our side, um, to try and start to look on, on chain data. Um, lot of, a lot of, a lot of. building that funnel and working out what do we actually want them to do. And sometimes it's telling people not to spend money until they're ready, you know, because re-engagement is almost more expensive than acquisition. You know, if I, if I get you into, if I get you, if I do get you from, you know, a podcast or a care well post or an event where I, or sponsor an event and then, and then you've joined the discord and then, and then you've done, and then you've gone on the DAT. which I guess is kind of technically where marketing should end, isn't it? Once I've got eyeballs on the website, it's really down to the product. And if I go to connect my wallet and I just get a spinning wheel of doom, I'm like, well, that wasn't any good anyway, you know, that was over height. not coming, you know, I mean, it's gonna take me a lot of, a lot of like mind share to get me to come back. So I think, I think, and a lot of what we've been thinking about recently and kind of to your previous point is if we've got a B2B product, do we want to launch with a token or do we want to try and raise money from a VC, get the B2B products a lot further along and then use the token as an acquisition method later down the line? Because I think a lot of early ICOs, know, one page websites with Ethereum addresses were like, send money here and hoping you're getting tokens. I think What we're seeing a lot more is people are pushing off their token launch as far as they physically can and trying to raise or boost, you know, know, I think, I think the cool, the cool thing that we're seeing in the projects that coming to us, they're coming with an MVP, they're coming with a prototype. They've got some users versus when they were just coming with a white paper. And I think that's because it's the advancements of the whole space has happened so quickly that you can fork a lot of things. know, like a vesting contract can be prewritten for you in order to do all that stuff. So I think it's a lot easier to get closer to a working MVP. So I do think understanding really what the actions you want to do, how valuable each action is, and making sure you know what your Luna was so, so clearly. worked out, you know, like, I read a very clever data scientists and it would be like $12 for an email sign up $40 for KYC $100 for a first rate and $150 for the third trade. And we could literally see it go all the way through. I think a lot of a lot of, you know, even see it was a case sink and wild marketing last year is that they didn't really know what everyone to do. were promoting their launch. The launch was quite a tricky launch and it's like they're still trying to find that product market fit. Mm-hmm. Before we go into the case studies on the Flight3 website, maybe I can ask one last question around product market fit. Because in crypto, there's the product that the project is building, whether it be a DEX or some kind of application. But in many cases, though, most won't admit it, the token is also a product. And so when you're speaking of product market fit, what are you saying? Um, product, product market fit is where, is where we're solving a problem. Isn't that like, always think of, uh you know, the coffee machines, you get all around the world with the little pods you put in and you're just about always get it to fill in. You know, if we need the CEO of the protocol to explain what it does and why we need it, it's, it's not there, you know, and I think I love to think of the method of iceberging. where you've got this tiny thing at the top. if we look at a project like SubSquid, which is indexing for the blockchain, the Google of blockchain, allows you to search blocks. I'm not technical and I'm sure there's loads of things that SQD actually does, but it's hard. It is the Google of blockchain. It allows you to, if you're a developer, you can find all the different things really quickly, kind of like a library. And I think we've had, I think there's a lot of L1s that struggling with transactions. There's a lot of DeFi protocols that are good ideas, but there's just not enough liquidity in transactions going through that they actually make sense. It is a cool idea, but it's not flowing and we're not really solving a uh real uh issue yet. Do people want to use it? and you know, our goal is our dream is to build a, uh, work on a WhatsApp or Uber type products where it's something that everybody uses in their daily lives every single day. And I think one of the things that makes me really interested about that is it doesn't, and this could be the way the web three goes. It doesn't necessarily need to be a human that does that. What with these AI agents and these AI wallets, they don't even need a jazzy front end. You can get back to building cool stuff. So it's intriguing to see how that integration will happen. Mm-hmm. um Let's go to the case studies page of Flight 3. um You've got a number of projects here that are former clients or current clients. You've got Coinbase, VeChain, Solana, Google Fabric, VC, Fuel, um just lots of clients. And maybe take us through one story of a client, like maybe what their needs were. at the time and what Flight 3 did to help them along the way. Yeah. I mean, started so, um, Coinbase and the standard crypto. Um, the cool thing about our industry is that we're still, we're still all trying to help build it. You know, like I think one of the problems we have is that if you haven't used crypto, it's hard to regulate crypto. So standard crypto's goal is to, well, it's quite in the U S it was a very aggressive body. was literally fighting. a body of the Gary Gensler, the SEC who was trying to shut down crypto. it was a really, it was a So the brief in the UK was we've actually got a crypto curious government. They're they're British, so they're bit more conservative. They're like, we like the sound of it. We don't understand this. And we're to be very cautious. So our goal here, our goal, our goal there is not to like fight. government, it's more to educate, inspire, and bring our industry together so we can be one collective voice. So really cool, know, it's got all of the big exchanges like, you know, my mentor, made blockchain.com guy called Nick Carey. So brought him in and we brought, I think we were nearly 100 partners. So we helped build the website, helped with the branding, helped with the event. standwithcrypto.org. Stamford crypto.org UK version. and, um, yeah, it's been an amazing project. We, we run events of parliament. Um, we had a, one of my, one of my investors, Stephen Bartlett came into the talk, sorry, came into the talk. Um, really relied on our design experience, community building and, really relied on considering cause we've got a lot of companies that could be competing. Yeah, yeah. oh they've all come together and they've all been really, really helpful. And they're all trying to make the UK seem better. I really, really enjoyed, really enjoyed that type of project because it uses a full range of the community building of the design of the growth of the data. So that's a really interesting one. And we're going into our second year. Um, so it's great to see the pro, the pro, the, you know, the exciting thing is the progress of. Seeing nothing hurts a team more if you slog away at it and it doesn't quite hit a raised cap or they don't, they don't, the team pivot. So, so very, very excited about that. You know, if we look at like Fabric, that's where, you know, we build a lot of websites and you know, that's bringing your brand to life. So Fabric's a VC and we love working with VCs because they've got great deal flow. Lots of good projects. where they can kind of pre-vet them, you know, and I think a lot of uh our internal marketing for like three years were actually word of mouth. So people are you should speak to these guys, and we're like, oh, we should speak to them. So that's a great thing, so I love doing that. And then VChain were doing a lot of uh social marketing and really trying to, they've got a really cool new. I mean, they've been doing RWA since 2017, you know, they're very OG project. Um, they've got some really exciting part, you know, I love making real life content, you know, cause they've got a good big partnership with the UFC. Dana White is joined. So it's a great way to get, you know, people making content that's fun and almost organic sharing V chain, but like not just shilling it. know, then, then, The token price is not leaning the end goal. It's letting people know that they're here, that it resides in the goal of these things happening without just kind of like, you know, in some ways I like to get people like to say this project's bad and start fights. you're, you know, it's a bit like when someone you get a reference check by a new person and they're like 11 out of 10. You're like, okay, so you best friends, know, almost a 7.9 is more realistic. Let me ask about that. Because I think when VeChain made the announcement that they're now sponsors of the UFC, um I think people questioned, what's motivating them to do that? What do they see in the UFC crowd? Do they see the UFC crowd as crypto curious and potentially holders or buyers of the VeChain token? I guess, what's the motivation there? I think sports is such a good crossover. know, I think, you know, 25 to 40, 50 year old audience, you know, like there's a lot of cool stuff happening in crypto. And, know, our company is 52 % women, which is really, really cool. But I do still think it's predominantly a male audience. You know, and I think we've seen with the F1, like If you watch the F1 at the moment, it's hard not to spot the crypto logos on the cars. I think I was actually involved or my friend was involved and I must put it in closely and sponsoring music events. if you think of a music event, I'm going to a dark room to lose the stress of a day to day work and listen to music or listen to a concert or watch a show. Whereas if I'm a... a football box or if I'm at the F1 or if I'm at a fight, I probably can put a bet on, you know, it's kind of, it's there, you're active, you've got head space to think about that type of thing. So, don't know 100 % the reason why they went to do it, but as an audience, think sports is a great audience in that there's a lot of sports betting. So there is a crossover. And then the second part is people really love sport. know, it's what you call soccer, what we call football. Football in the UK is massive. know, OKAX sponsor Man City. And they're not really in the UK. They're sponsoring it for the huge global audience that's watching Man City play. whenever I... It's funny, we have quite a lot of team in Cape Town and when I go there, they have... more Premier League games showing than we show in the UK and everyone's wearing the full kits. I think that's a really cool way to associate with something that people really like and respect. yes, like any sponsorship, you need to work hard with your assets. I often work with Barcelona and Arsenal and when you get their players, you need three if it's fintech product or a gambling product. And they only let you go 35 minutes from the training ground and you only get them for two hours. And there's about 55 things they can't do. So that's why it's very hard to make those kinds of videos interesting. But it's a great brand advocacy like Cole. We love Cole Palmer. He's got a celebration or Ronaldo. He's, you know, he did a lot with the Binance launch and stuff. He's got that. You know, he's got the most amount of followers of anyone in the world, I believe. So attaching your brand there is a positive, positive sort of sign that you, you're serious. have, you know, can afford it and then hopefully you engage their audience. Yeah, Okay, well, Harry, this has been really, really enlightening. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. I will share in the show notes all the links to Flight3.xyz. Any final words you'd like to share with the audience before we get off? Yeah, I think there's no, there's no right way to do the best marketing and then web three, just be authentic and be down fast. Find out what doesn't work and then double down on what does and just keep going and going and going because when all the bits come together, it will be amazing, but it's a really, really tricky, fast moving space. I think those are great last words. Appreciate it. Thank you. Cheers, man.