Okay, we're rolling. Jose from Vdex, welcome. Pleasure to be here, Peter. ah So you're the founder of Vdex and we'll definitely get into what Vdex.Trade is. ah But let's first hear about your origin story. what, I guess, how'd you get into crypto is number one. And then number two is like what problem or gap did you see that led you to build Vdex in the first place? So I got into crypto as a trader. was first a forex trader, options trader, everything under the sun. I found out about crypto as an asset class and eventually got so interested in the fundamentals that I started to learn what Web3 is and what I was actually trading more than just the primary majors. And as for what problem I saw was primarily user experience and to a lesser extent or maybe even a greater extent, but as a derivative problem of user experience, it is the, let's say stigma associated with crypto. And this is as a result of a lot of speculative use cases and lack of fundamental value. Tell us more about experience problem. I've spent a lot of time with founders recently um that have focused on the user experience part, primarily wallets, really. I've met with three wallets recently, and DeFi.app, Infinex, and um another wallet. And the primary thing that they focus on is user experience and really, like, how do we bring Web2 people into the space? and do it in a way that's like hassle free and it's right now it's just such a pain to use wallets and to participate in crypto. What did you see from a, I guess, from a trader's perspective on the user experience and opportunities there? Yeah, I think we get to a point where we're choosing between having a fully decentralized and conforming to the ideals of crypto. So trustless, censorship resistant, decentralized, or we're choosing something that is smooth and seamless for the user. It's always been a choice. And this manifested in the FTX collapse, obviously a fully centralized exchange. And yet this, know, worsened the persona of crypto even worse. So this to me is the big problem. I think everyone in crypto really agrees that user experience is a problem, but you may encounter some controversy if it's truly the inhibition. So some would say that, okay, the problem is not user experience. In fact, it's the fact that there's no real applications that even matter to the user experience. And to this, I agree. However, I think the problems are more conjoined than some give it credit for. Because if you have a much more seamless user experience, then you can compare apples to apples with, okay, here's a Web3 game, here's a Web2 game. The experience is identical, but the Web3 game has some features, some properties that the Web2 game doesn't have. And you can debate on how great these additional features are, uh but Right now, they can't even be measured because the inhibition from the poor user experience is so great that it's not even a calculation. The friction is so much greater to even before we can even consider the benefits, however great or however small. So if you allow the two to play on an even field, I think we would be able to. play around with retail and offer more user applications than currently exists now. And I'll also add that I think the way we think about solving the UX problem is really in the box thinking, whether it's the same L2 scaling solutions, let's make the blocks bigger, let's make the blocks closer together, let's find something to do with seed phrases. It's very in the box thinking and... This is why I'm really excited about what we're doing because it's so out there as to be so crazy it might possibly work. Let's talk about uh Vdex. Like when you say it's so out there, maybe describe to the audience what Vdex is. It's been described as the first omnichain perpdex with no slippage and sustainable Bitcoin yield. uh Maybe describe what that means. And also when you say it's so out there, uh maybe some details around that. So VDex is a ProbeDex, as you said, but the magic of it comes from our parent company, Virtual Labs, who created the Virtual Rollup. Virtual Rollup is similar to Lightning Network for our Bitcoin viewers, or for your Bitcoin viewers. It is, instead of being a more efficient, higher throughput, million billion TPS, you know, the numbers that attract the large seed investments from VCs, It's not that. It's a state channel. And the state channel involves self-verification. You yourself become the validator of your own data. You yourself become the node of your own transactions. You yourself become the oracle. And it's sort of flipping on its head what proof of stake and proof of work have pioneered, which is sufficiently decentralized third-party verification. But this third-party verification comes at a cost. Because it is third party, it's necessarily latent. It's also necessary that you must pay for the privilege, uh pay this third party to perform your transactions. The best way I can describe state channels for those who are not already familiar that power the virtual roll-up, which is the core of our technology, is uh you're basically creating a safe. uh Imagine a physical safe for which you have the key and you're putting this safe on chain. and you're preloading it with some capital, but every time you want to access the safe to move money around, you're moving it from one shelf in the safe to another shelf. So you don't need to pay any third party for this. You also don't need to wait for a block to finalize. The only blockchain typical interaction that you have is the creation of the safe. And so let me give you a very real and very practical example for how this works with VDEX. So if you want to deposit on, let's actually take uh Uniswap as a counter example or DYDX as a counter example, you need to basically pay for every transaction. You need to wait for every transaction to finalize. It's sort of a pro-rata relationship. So you're interacting with the blockchain. It's going to basically expand in cost, expand in latency. And you can never achieve the performance of centralized systems such as Binance. But with VDEX, the only blockchain transaction is the creation of the safe, is the initial deposit. However, once you have uh these funds in this safe, where you yourself have the key, uh every interaction henceforth, uh it's in a sub-millisecond finality on the machine. uh Involves no gas transactions at all and it's fully self-custodial. So how this works in practice is let's say Alice deposits or I'll even say you Peter Peter deposits 100 USD C onto VDX and You receive this signature this receipt basically acknowledging you have uh deposited 100 USD C and Now every time you want to trade let's say you long 20 USD C into aetherium uh You and Vdex both sign this receipt, you both store it, then you sell the 20 USDC now for 30 USDC, so you've made a $10 profit, you receive the receipt for this, and you basically just stack up all these receipts. The money is moving from shelf to shelf within your safe on chain, and this can be on any chain you want. And how this works in terms of self-custody is that uh same with Lightning Network, if VDex is ever malicious or simply offline for whatever reason you have this receipt that you can put on chain and this now would be a gas transaction uh that proves that this is in fact the state the current balance you have and you will be able to win any dispute and it's basically it behaves uh first as a centralized exchange where you have these receipts, but in the case of uh you not trusting the other party, then it behaves as a DEX. So it's sort of performant as a centralized exchange during times of agreement, and during times of disagreement you have this fallback option that now behaves as a gas guzzling DEX. But, because most times you will agree, in fact we say most times meaning basically all the time, because it is unprofitable to cheat, that in fact you'll get the benefit of a centralized exchange the vast majority of the time. Now you mentioned you uh were a currency trader. Did you build VDEX to solve any specific problems that you encountered within the crypto space? Yes, so the primary uh one being I was unfortunately a lender to FTX. uh that's the primary focus we have is self custody. But we found that in fact self custody is a bit of a harder sell. uh Most traders sort of think about security second and they think about uh profit and performance first. And so we also focus on this idea of Omnichain, which is if you have, we have partners with uh a lot of L1s and L2s in the space that want to perform as infrastructure projects. So think about them as AWS or Azure, they're not consumer facing. They want to provide the best underlying execution. And so we bring our Omnichain perp decks to them and now their users, which have their their credits to continue the AWS analogy or their funds on these chains, or they can access without bridging, which is insecure, costly, and also latent, uh without any form of bridging. And specifically also providing this to market makers on Ethereum. So, DYDX has their own chain, Hyperliquid has their own chain. A lot of market makers want to have their funds with the minimal OPSEC risk as possible. And this means Ethereum. And so we're the only PerpDex that allows you to have your funds directly on Ethereum without bridging. So these would be two of the biggest problems that I encountered as a user. And the target customer for VDX, are you looking at Crypto Curious, hardcore traders? What's the actual, the target audience that VDX, for which VDX was created? We start of course with crypto native users. That's our bread and butter and that forms the core user base of VDex now. But because the user experience is so seamless, we want to be able to onboard retail as well. So in terms of the onboarding experience, which is also a huge benefit we have, of course we have no KYC as the decentralized exchange. But in fact, we also have no VPNs even in previously geo locked regions such as Japan, Turkey, and the United States. So this is a big, big benefit because we out-compete Binance without the KYC and we out-compete Hyperliquid and DYDX without that need for a VPN. And so we imagine in the not so distant future doing Superbowl ads where it's a simple, truly one-click integration, one-click launch where you can even start with a balance without even needing to deposit. No seed phrase, none of this uh inhibition. we see ourselves as a no compromises alternative to both. Super Bowl ad, you're thinking really big. Yes. Tell us more about that. What's driving you to think big at that level? Well, I'm a college dropout. I am previous economics student at Yale. I had uh many other opportunities that I could have taken, but I decided for the riskiest option. And so I always think as big as I am able to. And we have no less than six USPs that other products don't have. So I'll recap them. The ability to deposit from any chain. Sub millisecond finality, is over 200 times faster than the next leading exchange being hyper liquid uh fully zero gas No, KYC. No VPN uh sustainable Bitcoin yield. So the ability to take uh Collateral from Bitcoin Ethereum and directly give yield which there are very few other opportunities for Bitcoin yield. So Stack your sats and then of course finally the fully full self custody, which as we saw from hyper liquid uh they're completely masquerading as a decentralized exchange but can roll back the chain as they did. So you use, thanks for sharing the six uh USPs or unique selling propositions. You mentioned hyperliquid in there. Do you view them as a competitor or as a potential competition? Absolutely, they're a competitor. Although we do see ourselves primarily actually as infrastructure. So VDEX is a way to display our technology, but uh myself, I'm a game theorist, cryptographer, the team is mostly made up of PhD cryptographers. So our uh real value to the world is in innovative primitives and new systems. And so somehow, some way, maybe we'll go into the business of white labeling and giving our technology to other exchanges to collaborate with them as well. But as of now, absolutely, they're our biggest competitor. So standing out from the crowd is, it's really hard to do. It's very noisy, lots of KOLs, know, spouting things here and there. How do you view VDex, or I guess how do you approach standing out from the crowd, given the level of competition out there from centralized and also decentralized exchanges? So the technology of course has got to be a big one. We have USPs that no one else is able to achieve. But I'll talk a bit how we manifest this. So one example is with the Omni-Chain. So yes, we have the ability to take a lateral without bridging on any arbitrary chain. However, the way we're doing this I think is unique. So we have partnerships with chains such as B Squared, Bitlayer, Nibiru. And we're basically becoming their go-to number one perp decks for their community. We have liquidity agreements with them as well. So we have a sort of full stack partnership with these chains. And it's something that our competitors cannot do because the hyper liquid and dydx they've gone for the build your own chain approach. So sort of a vertical integration, you have the settlement layer, you have the brokerage, you have everything from top to bottom. like to horizontally scale. So we don't have our own chain. We never have plans to have our own chain. We're sort of a brokerage that can be on any chain. And this means we're basically able to uh form communities among all of these different ecosystems and do this in a way that also gives us a liquidity benefit. So we have these agreements with, for example, also stable coins. So our ability to take volatile asset collateral, so your FPTCs, your... all these other stable coins, DLC, BTC. We have partnerships with both LSPs and other stable coins that uh we can get liquidity from them directly, which of course is the main product of any exchange, but also onboarding their users and being the go-to. Hey, you have this stable coin, you are a Nibiru user, go use VDex. They're the go-to. And this is a way we're manifesting and actually taking advantage of our technology in a way that otherwise could just become a feature that's lost. Let's talk about marketing and growth. What you've described sounds like, so one approach is you make a contrast between VDex and the OmniChain versus Hyperliquid. And so on the one hand, you're promoting and marketing to traders themselves, but you also have these partnerships that you have because you're horizontally focused and so creating partners. that use the services of VDex or the brokerage of VDex. How are you approaching that growth from that perspective and how do you spend your time there? Great question. we have, we think about growth in sort of two ways. We have like the very high level strategy, which was making the decision to be horizontally scalable. And that's also only allowed by our technology. So it's not even something that, that we can choose to be vertically integrated and also at the execution level. So basically, you know, approaching partners, uh I have a very big network in the space as does our head of ecosystem. And so, basically offering not just looking for value, but going to these other partners and saying, hey, we want to, whether for example, it's a stable coin. Well, we make your own vault, your users are able to access even higher yield than the USDC or USDT depositors and have this little benefit. So how can we give you something of value that we can collaborate on and not just sort of holding your hand out for for favours and this is how you make meaningful strides in partnerships that's not just two logos on a Twitter announcement. Binance Labs is listed on the site. How does that work with uh you building VDex and potentially a competitor to Binance? I guess what was that conversation like? Yeah, I mean, hard to call Binance a competitor. We're a minnow to them, but yeah, they do believe in us. They backed us in their season five incubation. So we actually, we won that competition and close with the guys there. And they mostly backed us on the technology. And I mentioned we can white label in the future and possibly bring these centralized exchanges to the distributed world without the compromise that they need to follow regulation and also they want to not compromise their performance. But we are the no compromises alternative. So we think we can not only grow the deck space natively, but also onboard the centralized exchanges to the distributed world. So hard to see us as competitors, but... Yeah, we have the technology, is the main thing they believe in and we'll be manifesting this in VDex, but also in other products to come. One of them being we want to create a virtual bridge, is uh using the OmniChain tech and liquidity we will amass uh from VDex. We want to have users be able to fully self-custodial in one... block transaction, one confirmation, deposit and withdraw from one chain. And this is something that is probably my biggest pet peeve in the space. So something I'm looking forward to as well. You know, we're seeing kind of a trend with centralized exchanges with Coinbase and now Base and Kraken recently launched their chain. um And I imagine other exchanges are looking at doing the same thing. And you also mentioned the white label aspect of VDEX. um Do you see that as a potential path for growth, is becoming the white label partner for some of these centralized exchanges? Absolutely. Yeah, I would say that's, that's a big aim of ours. We are currently in beta, so we need to have a few months of no, no errors, no new bugs for that to be a possibility. So we're really excited to do that once we're ready. And I think also we have a really great marketing team and we've made a lot of progress so far on that front, but I mentioned the team is tech focused and always will be tech focused first. the more that other DEXs can do the marketing for us and we can keep focusing on inventing new primitives, new cryptographic ideals, the better for us. Yeah, you mentioned you're uh currently in the beta phase. It's invite only. How is that going? It's going really well. We only launched two weeks ago, but we already have a few hundred users, ah over a million in open interest. And like I mentioned, no bugs so far. we are expanding to new chains. Currently, we're only on Ethereum, so we don't even have that OmniChain feature set in there. So you can imagine how much more we'll expand once we have that. And also only have BTC-USD as a trading pair. It's really just an MVP, maybe even is the better way, minimum viable product is the way to describe it. But we have that sort of core nucleus of sticky users, people coming back every day and spend good markets to trade in. then, we'll be expanding to more chains, more trading pairs, higher leverage, and eventually making it not invite only, but accessible for the entire world. How do you prioritize the chains that you eventually support? It's on a relationship basis. So we're really close, especially with the teams at Bitlayer and Nibiru. So uh I know both of those teams really, really well. And so those will be the first teams we launch on. We have agreements with them to provide the initial liquidity. So that's a really helpful thing for us as well to further that open interest and allow us to support more longs. ah And then after we... we go through the first five core partnerships we have in terms of L1s and L2s, then it'll be on a maybe a more ad hoc basis of, you know, where are our users requesting? So we've a lot of, we have gotten a lot of requests for optimism. So we don't have any agreement with optimism, but we're getting a lot of demand from optimism. So, you know, let's try and set this up with optimism and, and, know, maybe with Arbitrum as well. Currently we're only EVM, but we want to support Solana soon too. let's put on the roadmap of getting SVM support. So it's going to be decided by the users. You mentioned Bitlayer. I just spoke with the Citreya team and um they're doing some really exciting things with their ZK rollup. um What's your view on, there's been a lot of talk on the Bitcoin Renaissance and how a Bitcoin Renaissance is needed for DeFi to really grow. Because right now DeFi is kind of in a, it's really a close set of primarily Ethereum and Solana users and um Capital really hasn't. there hasn't much been much capital inflow. And so for DeFi to really grow, we need Bitcoin. But for Bitcoin to participate, we need more opportunities. What do you think about that? And I guess how what's VDex's role in the Bitcoin Renaissance? my God, this is a great question. I am a huge Bitcoin maxi. uh That's how I got into trading, of course, through Bitcoin first. Big BTC-Fi guy as well. I think the biggest problem with BTC, well, first of all, Bitcoin is not a Turing complete network, so it's hard to make complicated... platforms, lending platforms on Bitcoin L1. So really uh love Charlie and the team of Bitlayer for making BitVM a reality and allowing to solve that part of the equation. So that I would say is that's like sort of the number one problem. The number two problem I would say is that there aren't really any sources for yield. So there is Babylon that's come around, but they only have so much capacity. They're a hard limited uh protocol. the core problem for this is that Bitcoin is proof of work. So Ethereum, proof of stake, Selena, proof of stake, proof of history, all these tokens have their own native source of yield. Bitcoin does not. If you go on Aave right now and deposit WBTC, you'll be lucky to get 10 bips, less than a tenth of a percent for Bitcoin yield. where VDX comes into this is that we're able to offer sustainable Bitcoin yield. And this is because we take Bitcoin as a form of collateral, both for trading and leverage, but also for the VMM, the virtual market maker, which you can think of it as the hyper liquidity provider. Basically, users pool their liquidity together in hyper liquid, it's only stable coins and it makes a market in the most profitable way to arbitrage funding rates and then distributes that yield out to the users. And the VMM, it does the same thing, but takes volatile assets. So BTC, uh ETH, uh these assets that previously are kind of, you know, there are some protocols. think Drift can take Solana as a volatile asset, but also only at, I believe, 80 % collateral. but we are park lateralized for BTC and ETH. So you can put BTC and if you put in say one BTC, it's a hundred thousand and it goes to 110,000, then your equity in the vault is going to be as if you deposit another 10,000 more. And if it goes down, then it's 10,000 less. But the crucial thing is it's always one BTC. So the BTC, it's always one BTC in, one BTC out, but the yield you're getting is on top of that. So it's sort of a positive sum game. I do want to clarify that it's not a risk-free strategy. It is possible to lose money arbitraging funding rates. I have to add that caveat. uh But uh judging from the performance of the HLP, it's mostly up and to the right. And the reason we're able to do this and other protocols are not is because we have this uh state channel tech uh in the virtual roll-up that allows basically, know, high frequency updates of price where if you wanted to do, okay, Bitcoin is a hundred thousand, now it's a hundred thousand and a dollar, now it's a hundred thousand and two dollars. If you wanted to do this on chain, it'd be prohibitively expensive. So this is why you can't do it on chain, but you can do it through state channels, which is peer to peer. The user verifies their own data. Peter, when he deposits instead of a hundred USDC, let's say he deposits 0.1 ETH. Well, he's going to have a lot of signatures back and forth. on just his network that's verifying the price is increasing and his equity is increasing. So it's a big deal that we are able to take this natively without uh going to a lending market to get stable coins to then deposit and get yield. It's more secure, it's more easy, and it's parcolateralized. And that sounds super exciting. I mean, I'm a huge Bitcoin bull and we need more DeFi protocols, you know, supporting Bitcoin and doing things kind of natively in Bitcoin. The acquisition and kind of growing users on VDex from like the Bitcoin communities. Well, how do you view that? Because I think there's kind of one psychological aspect here with, you know, there's a There's an aspect of Bitcoin holders that they don't want to do anything with their Bitcoin. They just want to just sit on it. And then there's some, I think, that primarily come from the Ethereum and Solana communities that started with Bitcoin. And so they're more comfortable risking their Bitcoin by participating in DeFi projects like Babylon, et cetera. And there's also some miners. uh And some of these miners, from the ones I've spoken with, they're willing to... to risk 1 to 5 % of their Bitcoin holdings to participate in DeFi projects. And so looking at these personas, and these are not qualitative or scientific or anything, but just based on my anecdotal experience in speaking with Bitcoin holders, they're roughly in a couple of camps. There's some that don't want to touch their Bitcoin. They just want to sit on it. There's some that are very... they're very comfortable with taking risks with their Bitcoin. And these are primarily Bitcoin people that are also Solana and Ethereum people. And then there's miners that are very steeped in the Bitcoin space, but they're willing to only risk a small percentage. Small, I put that in quotes because 1 to 5 % of their holdings is pretty meaningful. I guess, how do you... Given the Bitcoin personas that I just shared, how does... And if you agree, how do you view growing Bitcoin users on VDEX given those personas? So when VDEX of course is live across EVM, this means it's not the L1. So the clientele we have across these Bitcoin L2s such as Bitlayer, Core, um these Bitcoin holders are a lot more DeFi oriented because it's not Bitcoin L1. uh We actually have found are very risk loving in terms of the yield they want to get. These are mostly uh protocols, in fact, uh even up all the way to the institutions, the ETFs that want some sort of arbitrage on their yield that uh now, of course, they can't uh risk directly these holdings. But we've been in talks with them also to develop sort of a hedging strategy between uh the yield. So if we imagine that the typical yield, the typical APY Excuse me, of a funding rate arbitrage strategy is between 20 and 30%, as we see historically from the hyperliquidity provider. Well, it can be quite easy to underwrite this risk at say 10%. So, you know, there's some third party that says, okay, well, I'm gonna, you know, get on average between 20 and 30%. So I'm comfortable basically selling a bond at 10%. Typically, I'm gonna profit, you know, between 10 and 20 % on top of this. But if it ever does go lower or goes negative, well, then I pay it out. And so that's why this is at 10%. So typically you make profit, but you're underwriting the risk. And this 10 % is, I don't want say risk free because there's always smart contract risk, but as a financial asset, you're not exposed to the vault strategy. And this is a really big deal for ETFs for uh more conservative BTC holders and also L1s and L2s. L1s and L2s have a lot of holdings that are sort of in a multi-sig on Ethereum, but those funds are also uh translated to their L2, and they have a bunch of funds that uh they can only get risk-free strategies on. And so to give uh these Bitcoin deposits a risk-free yield strategy for the protocol and for the users to give what we call auto-yield would be a really, really big deal. And so we want to bring these to these type of users. And for the more immediate, know, before we develop this idea of virtual bonds, well, uh we are targeting the most DeFi users, starting with those crypto natives, starting with those DeFi lovers. I respect the Bitcoin holders who uh don't want to stack their Sats, but uh we'll be there for those that do. The, I recognize that VitaX is currently in beta. You know, as you march towards, you know, launching kind of a public main net, um the growing the community becomes more and more important. um And I recognize that, you know, the way Hyperliquid approached it is they really optimized for traders and they didn't really do much for non-traders as part of their community. I guess, how do you view community building? Are you also optimizing just for users and traders, or are you looking at community members that want to be involved but aren't necessarily users of VDEX? And there's no right or wrong answer. It's just kind of a, we see this in crypto all the time, especially with really technical layer ones, or a lot of the community members are. They want to be part of the community, but they're actually not users of apps or of the layer one itself. And so how do you view community building with VDex? Community building is tough, very tough. But we have a pretty blossoming community, uh 10,000 in Discord and a few hundred in our uh cabal Telegram chat, really focusing on Telegram right now. And uh well, we have a lot of ways to participate. Of course we have our investors. We also have uh a community of developers, uh cryptographers who are not part of the full team. And then all the way to moderators who really like what we're talking about but aren't traders. And even if you're not a trader, the best way to participate is uh passively investing in the virtual market maker and earning a pretty decent yield, not only on stables but on your ETH and your Bitcoin. So there really is a way for us to collaborate with every other protocol and there's a way for us to engage with every member in Web3. Of course, traders are our focus, but the community, course, also for not only for VDex, but for virtual labs, which is uh our technology of virtual rollups is also in a lot of games out there. So we have ways to play too. And really we have a lot of ways to participate. But of course, trading right now is the focus offering badges to moderators and uh people talking about us on on Twitter, so there's this as well. It's a whole ecosystem we're building. I think that inclusive approach makes a lot of sense and it's giving everyone, all your community members a place and something to do and be able to contribute in their own way, I think is important. uh I think optimizing for users and traders for ADEX is super important. I'm wondering if you're able to uh segment your community in terms of, can you find your actual users? and give them a specific role in Discord. I'm curious about that. Are you able to do that? Good question. So we're mostly working with Telegram for the, they're actually the only ones that have access to the platform so far. So it's sort of a one-to-one relationship where if you have access to the exchange, you also have access to the private Telegram chat. And we're sort of growing this out. uh But of course, measuring performance, we want it to be anonymous. So it's sort of an opt-in uh system where we were giving these badges to the users in Telegram that are most active and helpful and contributing and spreading the word about VDex and also to our top traders. And so we also do get this overlap for those that opt into this system. And in terms of Discord roles, we were actually giving Discord roles to our top community. as well to our ambassadors. And soon once we give access to our entire 10,000 person Discord, which of course will be a big step up from just the few hundred we have now, then this will be a whole other system of roles and badges that we give out. And probably the next few weeks we'll be expanding that access. Let's talk about the Telegram users um or the traders that are in your private Telegram group. um I imagine that that's uh quite active and they provide feedback on things that perhaps VDEX could do better. What's the feedback loop like? how, I guess from a developer's perspective, how are you receiving that feedback? Feedback is incredibly positive. It's been very, very reassuring to us that we built something that not only we would use ourself, but people are actually loving. uh And so that's the motivation that makes us uh work until five in the morning. uh as for the feedback as well, we get minor bug submissions. The chart is a bit laggy. this referral code doesn't work on this browser, know, stuff like that. And then for more sort of meta feedback, the biggest thing they want is leverage. They want more leverage. So we have a lot of DGENs in the chat. We currently offer only 3 % leverage on the BTC USD pair. This is because this is uh what we are comfortable safely doing for now. Of course, we want to get this all the way up to 50x eventually. uh Our immediate plans are to get this to 10x. quite soon. So this has been received loud and clear by us and is actually we we were thinking of adding more pairs before we added more leverage, but it seems now the people have spoken they want more leverage. So we have we'll do another round of audits. We've already been audited by Hal Bourne and and some independent auditors, but we'll do another round of audits not only from technical but from sort of game theoretic and uh protocol design. to make sure we don't suffer what Hyperliquid has suffered. So we will make those security checks and we will increase the leverage. And those types of audits are always hard. There's kind of like the known unknowns and then there's the unknown unknowns, right? And though some of the kind of mechanism design is uh well established and you still don't, there's still some, I guess there's blind spots in all types of mechanism design. How are you? um First of all, I don't know other than Delphi. I'm not really sure of other, maybe Delphi and Gauntlet are probably the only two that would look at kind of like game theory, mechanism design of projects. Are there others that I'm not aware of? Yeah, those are the two big ones. We really love token dynamics. They're actually specialty in PerpDex uh sort of designs. I don't want to speak out of turn, but I think they actually found some of vulnerabilities in these per platforms before they even happened, tried to warn them. But uh sometimes they don't listen, so I won't say anything else, but they're really good. really, really good suffice it to say, and I have a great relationship with their founder. And they helped us a lot with the initial version of this and uncovering some blind spots. And now we're actually taking a very systematic approach where everything has its own security proof. So we can actually use some modern designs to, again, nothing is ever to zero, but uh to basically get as close as you can to that uh using holistic uh proofs and a lot of high-level strategy design between the token dynamics team and my very smart team as well. That's awesome. With the VDEX team doing the due diligence in the auditing, the mechanism design audits, that gives users a lot of confidence that you guys are in it for the long run, that you're really serious about providing a good user experience and also a safe experience. um Is that something that you've communicated to the users of VDEX so far? Yeah, we communicate it at every turn, but we probably should still communicate it more to emphasize that this is our culture. So we were actually, you know, been trying to launch for several months now, but we have a policy that, any engineer for any doubt, however small can, you unilaterally, you know, postpone launching until we get to that hundred percent confidence level. And so this, this means that We're a bit slower to market than we would have liked to have been, but it means we are here for the long term. You know, fully docs team as well. So a lot of audits. We've made those public both mechanism design and technical. we really do. We really think that, I mean, we have six USPs. uh Even just one of these, I think would would make us a dominant player in the market. Let's just take, let's take the OmniChain one. just being Omni-Chain and just being a Perp Dex that you could deposit from any chain without bridging, I think this enough would make us a top 10 Perp Dex. We have six. So as we think about it, the only thing that can stop us from winning is a Black Swan event. And so we're doing our best to mitigate any Black Swan events. if we do this, then we think our fate is already sealed and our success is guaranteed. Gotcha. uh What about, so right now you're in beta. guess what are looking ahead, what are some plans for launching Maynet and opening it up to the public? Are you able to share any dates or anything? Yeah, so we are oh already on mainnet. So it's a mainnet beta on Ethereum. uh We will be expanding under beta to Nibiru, Bitlayer, B2, Core, Arbitrum Optimism, I can say for certain. So this will be in the next three months. A lot of them will be a lot sooner. So Nibiru and Bitlayer, you can look forward to uh sometime before mid-May, so in the next month. And uh also more tokens. can expect Ethereum Solana launched also within the next few months. And higher leverage, of course. That's the big one. Everyone wants higher leverage. So we'll be looking to get to 10x, 5x first, then 10x reasonably within the next few months. And what else big is coming? I mentioned I alluded to Virtual Bridge. Virtual Bridge I'm very excited about. This will probably be, we'll say, before the end of the year, maybe before Q3. uh Virtual bonds, that's a bit of a longer one. We'll say next year on that. uh And then the big one, getting out of beta. This is the number one uh long-term priority. It's something that we can't rush, though. We just need to have enough users test all sorts of things and get to that uh 99.99 % degree of confidence. uh And I'll also speak to what the beta actually is. So beta, as we have right now, we have 24-hour withdraw uh limits, meaning that if you request a withdraw, it'll take 24 hours. The purpose of this is that if a bybit-style attack happened on us, we have that time to foresee it. It's also an upgradable contract. So if there is some sort of flaw we detect, we can upgrade the contract. And these are the two big things about this. uh And once we... depart from beta, the big thing will be to have immediate withdrawals. And uh it'll still be an upgradable contract. But instead of it being controlled by the virtual team, we will have a 6 of 11 multi-sig with all sorts of industry leaders. uh Your viewers definitely know some of them that will be on there. Pretty excited to talk about that. But um that we will be looking for. Again, hard to say when, but we'll say We'll say by September, I think would be reasonable. Awesome. Well, Jose, thank you so much. Looking forward to the cool things you guys are doing with VDex. Thank you very much for having me, Peter.