Hello Gavin, how are you? Hello Peter, I am very well. Thank you, good to be here. uh Welcome to the show. uh Gavin Thomas is the leader steering 10 protocol. 10 is a layer two solution delivering smart transparency by combining Ethereum scaling with real encryption to support private smart contracts, AI agents and enterprise grade use cases. So Gavin, let's begin with the problem. What problem are you aiming to solve that led you to build 10 protocol? Yeah, so the problem is all of the data on Ethereum is currently transparent and when you've got full transparency it really limits what you can do with blockchain and particularly with Ethereum and we learned this when we were building another blockchain so myself and my two co-founders we built Corda blockchain when we were working together at R3 And what Corda was is intentionally made for enterprises, enterprise use cases. And we realized that we could bring the encryption technology that we use with Corda and bring it over to Ethereum. Because in the time that it took us to build Corda, Ethereum had grown into this massive ecosystem of innovation and liquidity. And we really wanted to bring the privacy encryption capability over to Ethereum. Kind of where the action was at, I guess. got it. I remember Korda in R3 uh and it's like one of the OG projects in the space. Yeah, very OG, like 2015 OG. The only other blockchains around at the time were Hyperledger from IBM and JP Morgan had Corum. You might remember Corum. um And yeah, you know, it felt like, I mean, like late, late 20 teens was definitely the heyday of these enterprise blockchains. I think many of them have fallen away. I hear Hyperledger Basu is being used in some corners of the world, but really the movement now is over to public blockchains because Ethereum is what, nine years old? Hasn't broken, you know, still works. So that's a lot to be said for running a mission critical mission critical system on Ethereum. for sure. So us about, so we, understand the need for privacy and I fully agree with you. uh You've branded this term smart transparency. Could you unpack that for us? Yeah, so we needed to find a way that's going to differentiate ourselves from just plain vanilla privacy because 10 does have kind of more flexibility, I guess. There's quite a nuance around how you can code for 10 as a developer. So we coined the term smart transparency because within the contract itself, within the smart contract itself, as a developer, you can very easily pick what data is private and what data is public. So it's not an all or nothing. It's very granular. So if you want to, I don't know, say you want to trade corporate bonds, you would have the pricing information, you would have the bond information, the coupon, the maturity date, all that stuff would be public, but the counter parties that are involved in the transaction, that'd be private. And as a developer, you literally just mark private or public within the smart contracts. So it makes it really... really flexible. It's almost like um an access control list where you pick and choose who has access to what data to determine what's private and what's public. That's super interesting. Tell us what is the mechanic by which developers are able to determine which parts of their transaction are private versus public. Is that like a toggle somehow or like a key? Tell us more. Super simple. So one of the principles that we built 10 upon was that the developer experience had to be super, super low friction, which meant if you're already familiar with coding for Ethereum, you had to be able to code and build for 10. So we've picked up the entire EVM, the entire Ethereum virtual machine, and we run that within a trusted execution environment. What that means as a developer is that all the tooling you've used, the smart contract coding you've used, so things like hard hat, Solidity, they all work straight out of the box. So actually even today, if you have a smart contract, if you had a DAP that runs on Ethereum, you could deploy that to 10 and it would work. But it wouldn't have any private components to it because you wouldn't have coded that in. So to answer your question, to be able to toggle, what data is public and what data is private. You're literally just picking in the smart contract private, you're literally writing private or public. That simple. Got it. So that's from the perspective of a developer. um And that makes sense. What about users? So users that want to transact on 10, are they able to determine which parts of their transactions, which transactions they want public versus private? So they know that bit the mercy of the developer so it depends how the DAP has been written in the ideal world and I guess this is the state we're all trying to get to in the ideal world the user wouldn't necessarily know that it's 10 running under the hood they just know that they're using a DAP that meets their needs if they're taking part in a blind auction for example they just know that their auction submission the price that they submit for that auction Nobody else can see that because that's the way the auction's been designed and it'll be in the Ts and Cs. They don't know that it's 10 making that magic work. Yeah, let's talk more about that. I actually love that. And I'm hearing more and more of that kind of ethos of, doesn't really matter what the plumbing is underneath. What matters is the application that the user is interacting with. They don't really care on which chain it's on. It used to be the case where developers are very proud of the chain on which they're building on. then now we're kind of moving to, you know, users really don't care. They just want to kind of get stuff done and move on with their life and be happy. m Which I came, I worked at Amazon and that was exactly the ethos is people want to come in, buy their stuff and move on. um And I feel like we're moving towards that now when we were on the very opposite side of, you know, we embrace complexity. We want to use language that confuses people. Now we're trying to, I feel like things are moving towards simplicity and clarity. What's your perspective on that? I do agree. uh You know when you've made it when people don't actually know you exist, if that makes sense. um You're just there in the background. um You're absolutely right. For years, and even now, people are still proud of what they're building. And the temptation is to shout from the rooftops, aren't we clever? We've made something amazing because XYZ. But anybody in that project's marketing department will tell you nobody really cares about the tech. makes perfect sense we're going to move away from that. But what I do see happening, which is slightly interesting, is how we're seeing large projects popping up and ah announcing that they're replicating technology that already exists in another form. And when I say that, I'm thinking about the new L1s that are coming up, um like Circle are going to build their own L1. don't know why, you know, there's plenty of L1s out there that could do that. Ethereum is a great L1 that's got plenty of L2s that will give you the extra functionality you need. So on the one hand, you're right. I think we're backing away from the bits and bytes, but there does appear to be almost like uh a reaction to that. And that is you're getting big projects, well-funded projects spinning up um development teams to rebuild. stuff that already exists. Yeah. Let's, you frame 10 is, is an approachable for developers. Um, I think you used the phrase in a nutshell for devs, in, in one of the, the, the posts that I read, um, tell us more about that and how does that help with, uh, onboarding developers and, and what the, I guess the, the go-to market is for, for develop the developer ecosystem. So if 10 is going to succeed, it needs to be able to have people deploying apps to it. That's it basically. And so we have to be attractive to people that find development interesting and that are quite innovative. And I mean, we're lucky at 10 in that we've got a very good engineering team. These guys are really excellent when it comes to TEEs, very smart people, but we all recognize that the best use case, the killer use case, isn't going to come from the 10 team, it's going to come from the huge developer community. it's always been important for us that if you're familiar, you have great ideas, you're already cranking out codes, but you kind of want to go, if you find your hands are tied because you're having to work around the transparency piece of Ethereum and then you end up looking... Perhaps elsewhere you might look at Cosmos, for example, because um they offer a degree of privacy or you end up looking at Midnight with Godano. And then you have to move out of your comfort zone a bit. Then you have to start moving away from the tools and the code that you perhaps spent years learning and getting familiar with. And you have to relearn things like Noir and other languages to be able to make use of those solutions. It was imperative for us that, ah you know, there's thousands of developers that building awesome dApps, can then go one step further. You know, they can enrich what they've potentially built or come up with new ideas. Like we see some great um games, for example, that are coming onto 10 because there's many, many games that are so reliant upon um the need to have privacy and encryption. particularly if they're prediction type games, where you need to predict an outcome. Obviously that outcome has to be hidden or there's no game. So that's super exciting for us. And I think when we've had the advent of AI and being in a position to have AI agents either consuming data privately or AI agents collaborating in private without revealing information to each other, then... you start having this very strong alignment to have vision at 10. Let's talk about some of the applications on 10. You mentioned games. um Can you maybe highlight one or two? And I'd love to talk more about that. Games is really intriguing, especially I can think of a game like Among Us where um you're like the assassin, but you don't want people to know you're the assassin. Are we looking at that type of game that requires some level of privacy where Unchain your, you're, you're, you're tagged as like the assassin, but no one else knows that you are. it something like that? That would be a great example actually, not one that we've thought of so I'm pleased you mentioned that Peter. So we kind of look at it from two ends of the spectrum. We've got very much the entertainment kind of game. So things like Civilization where you have maps that have to be revealed or elements of the game are going to be revealed over the course of playing that game. You you would never run, you couldn't have Civilization as an exciting game if the map was fully revealed, for example. So that's one end. At the other end, what we found a uh huge amount of traction within our own testing and with our own conversations is things like poker. So we built on-chain poker and we wanted to be able to demonstrate, showcase how you can have this mix of both private and public information. So you've got the private cards in your hands and then the public cards on the table. And whilst it was a showcase, we found it particularly um enticing for people, just because think it, is such a familiar game anyway, but I think it really triggered what people thought um it could be a next, I wouldn't say evolution, that's a bit strong, but it could be a next wave of interest. um coming onto Ethereum. I mean, we're seeing prediction markets being talked about well over the place right now. That's super, super hot. And I think there's going to be a close following, like a close follow up with things like poker, things like aviator type games, crash games. So it's really um exciting opportunities to make use of the blockchain technology in a way that just really hasn't been possible up till now. That is exciting. I I thought about poker too. And it's actually puzzling how, you know, with these casino games, um there's a lot of the poker games that I've seen. It's really a mix of like some is on chains, a lot of is off chain. But we haven't seen any fully on chain poker yet because exactly of the privacy issue that you bring up. um With 10, will that be possible? Yeah, it's possible now. So we've got a showcase app called House of 10 and it's running in testnet at the moment. What's slightly interesting is we wanted to make it even more uh demonstrative of what's possible with 10. So we built the poker game logic all on chain, but we actually have AI agents playing the poker. So you've got DeepSeek versus Gemini versus ChatGPT and others. As a human participant, you would actually predict which of the AI agents is going to win the next hand or win the entire pot. And it just adds another dynamic really that you can have these autonomous AI agents. So nobody is able, no human can interact with the agent. No human can manipulate the way the agent is playing poker. And on top of that, you've got all the logic of the poker that's also taken advantage of the privacy features. That's really interesting. So based on test net results that you've seen so far, which agent uh has an unfair advantage when it comes to poker? I'm guessing probably Chad GPT, maybe Grok. chat, chat, GPT and deep seek come, come quite close. It's often, yeah, between those two. Deep-seq, you know, I'm actually not surprised. I have some Chinese in me and we are kind of gamblers by, I think we were all born gamblers. And so that makes a lot of sense. um Let's dive deep a little bit into the privacy enhancing technologies. I mean, there's several kind of PETs. ah I've interviewed a number of ZK projects, a couple of projects uh that have a trusted execution environments. Tell us more about like what the, I guess under the hood, tell us about the privacy, um the actual like, I guess the plumbing, for lack of a better word, you know, the privacy plumbing of 10. Yeah, so you might be familiar with it already then, Peter, judging by other conversations that you've had. So Intel SGX trusted execution environment. uh We run everything within those TEEs, which means everything's encrypted and then we create um encrypted rollups that then we squirt down to Ethereum, obviously being a layer two. So the only data you ever see on Ethereum is all encrypted. you know, ZKP is super interesting. ZK technology is interesting. FHE... technology is super interesting. um I am convinced FHE will get there. I do believe it's going to be the final solution here. But the truth of the matter is, it's not ready yet and TEEs are ready. We've been using them for years. You we've TEEs in our phones. Banks have been using TEEs in one way, shape or form for over a decade. So it's very familiar technology and it works. Which is why we chose to opt with that solution first. On our roadmap, we've got research into FHE as well, but as I say, we want to use something that actually works right now. And so by using those TEEs with the entire EVM being encrypted, so all the logic's encrypted, And what people may not necessarily know about with TEEs is the concept of attestation. So you can always validate that the code that you think is running is actually running within that TEE. So because you can't ever see into it. So you have to trust what's running in there, but you can't compare a hash of the code that's running within that TEE. So you can always be confident it's running. And then we also make a point of um checking that any nodes in the network is running on a cloud service. That because um there are instances where TEEs um can be compromised if you have physical access to the chip. So we won't, we have a check process as I say that makes sure that it's a cloud-based TEE rather than a box running under somebody's desk. Now, a controversial question. I believe I read something around TE's uh last week. There was an issue with a, maybe you're familiar with it, um but I think there was an issue last week with Intel SGX. Maybe you can bring us up to speed on what the issue was and um what you guys are doing to avoid those problems. Yeah, so at its most straightforward, um with physical access to the chip, can connect wires into a particular configuration over the processor pins and that lets you, I think, I don't know how the hack worked because at that point, Peter, I've stopped paying attention. The reason I stopped paying attention is because um that hack is so dependent on physical access and... there's no 10 nodes in the network that can be physically accessed. They're all cloud-based. And all right, I get that cloud-based solutions are still running on physical servers, but many, many years ago, worked for Worldcom. And I used to visit their data centers. And if you've ever stepped foot in a data center, the chances of you being able to identify which actual physical machine is running a particular service at any point in time. It's impossible. It's impossible. I think in this particular data center, I spent about six hours trying to leave the building because they intentionally make it impossible to know where you are at any point in time. yeah, it mitigates the risk of any physical um exposure of the chip. You know, I had to laugh because when you shared that, it took you six hours to leave the building. It's like, when you go to an Ikea, like 10 hours later, then you can exit because you're just, you're lost. Like they make it so hard to leave. um And you end up spending thousands of dollars on things you never needed. uh Give us a sense of some numbers. You mentioned, um you know, developers that are building games on 10. Tell us how you're attracting, bringing awareness to developers to build on 10 versus, uh you know, there's a lot of chains, layer ones and layer twos on which developers can build. How are you bringing awareness to them? And what are you doing to maybe incentivize them to build on 10 versus another chain? I guess, what does that go to market look like? Yeah, yeah. So obviously very much top of mind. You know, trying to get mind share in what is a competitive environment is challenging. As you say, there's loads of layer twos out there. I would argue there's not many layer twos between privacy as well as 10. uh So we've got that going for us. But to build awareness, so we've launched an incubation program a few months ago, zero to 10. and really this what we were really picky I'm really pleased we've got the projects into the cohort because we were very selective about what they were building they had to be privacy orientated they had to have a very strong privacy piece to them and we got some great uh members so we've all the way from trades finance through to crash games delivered over x-posts uh through to open source governance for developing countries. um And, you know, there's a wide selection of projects intentionally to demonstrate that there's such a huge amount of potential. um And these projects will be coming online on mainnet over a period of time. Some of them are much further developed than others. but they're all going to bring some form of innovative value that has never been seen on Ethereum before. So that's very exciting. um In terms of raising awareness, we just have to get out there. So we've been super busy in the last month or so, particularly in APAC. So at Career Blockchain Week and Token and uh BD team and marketing team work tirelessly to keep the level of awareness of 10 right up there. whether that's through collaborative side events or meaningful articles. And I think what's a standout component for 10, I think as a project is the level of thought leadership and the quality of our articles. it's something that just going back to what I was saying about people don't really care about tech. It's always... It's always quite a tough conversation with our marketing team because we want to be able to share very, very kind of deep and meaningful thought leadership pieces because we love writing about the tech that we're building and love writing about what, what 10 is going to unlock. But you need to do it in such a way that's, um, that's interesting and compelling. And sometimes that deep tech article isn't quite what people want to be paying attention to and has to be far more snappy. So. I think we often have debates about the best way to be able to communicate what tennis is about, essentially that's how we're approaching it. I feel like we're in a really interesting juncture of time where, you know, privacy has always been an ethos in blockchain and crypto. um But I feel like now where there's kind of a big conflux of, you know, projects in the TE space, FHE, ZK, that, and of course with Zcash doing really well in the last week or two weeks or so, I feel like now is like the time where people are finally waking up to privacy is really important and we need to pay attention and it needs to be one of these characteristics that should be elevated more in blockchain. Do feel like now is the right time? I do. um It's always been the right time to have privacy, but you're right. There's now is where there does appear to be a peak in interest. But Vitalik's been talking about privacy since summer last year, and there was a ton of support, financial support for ZK projects last year. In fact, we had We kind of suffered a little bit ourselves because we're TEE orientated. We were often fighting or answering a question about why are you using TTT, why are you not using ZK. And TEE, we just had to keep on justifying it over and over and over. And we stuck to our guns. And actually, it feels like we've come out the back of that. And to your point, privacy is becoming more prevalent and TEEs are becoming interesting again. I think maybe because it's taking a while for the ZK. technology to really meet the expectations. I'm sure it will get there in time. It's just taken a bit longer than people perhaps thought. But yeah, it's definitely where there's a high level of interest. It doesn't feel like Ethereum's been done to death, but we're definitely at a point where there's a desire to unlock new experiences and bring new interest into Web3. and that will come in the shape of uh almost like a uh technological refresh, I guess, where there's an opportunity for people to use privacy and encryption. Yeah, it's actually quite exciting. um mean, it's, you know, in real life, we, you know, of course we engage in transactions and we appreciate privacy, we demand privacy. um And it's really weird that, you know, in blockchain, everything is just so transparent and we're actually okay with that until we're not. um And so I'm really grateful that, you know, you and the team, you're building 10 and you're in the privacy space. And I'm really pleased to see so many projects really tackling privacy in their own way because there is such a need for it. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. uh A debate I was having with my friends recently is the use of our data. So we've all been giving up data to Web3 companies for probably 10 years now. And, you know, there was a point when we didn't realize and then we all realized and we didn't really care. And now we all begin to care. And so that is, that's the upshot. of people now realizing that when our data has been harvested for four or five years and then it's been analyzed for a couple of years, we're now at a point where you could argue we're being manipulated by the large Web2 companies because they know which buttons to push to make me react in a certain way, to make you react in a certain way and we're kind of being herded around at the mercy of the way we're presented with information over social media through websites. And I think there is a growing backlash around being able to hold on to our data or at least be in control of our data and knowing what our data is being used for. Some people are perfectly comfortable to give up their data, but they should at least be compensated. You you could come to a point where I'm always going to own my data and then I'll decide whether to sell that. big corporate X or not. Yeah. Your background in enterprise blockchain, I know we've been talking about kind of small teams, developer teams that are building on 10. Is there also room for enterprises to use 10? Is that part of the scope? Part of the scope, yeah. It's a long band. So we learned from the quarter days that it's a long, long sales cycle with enterprises, particularly financial institutions. um And we are having those conversations, um it just takes time. we need to be able to have a degree of success out of the gate. We want to be successful. We want to be able to demonstrate what Ten can do. And that's not going to happen if we're sat on our hands talking to banks for two, three years until they're ready to move beyond the POC. So yeah, there is definitely a place for enterprises. They are definitely coming to blockchain, definitely coming to Ethereum. Some of them will be going to Solana for various reasons. It will happen. It just takes time because they have invested. millions and millions and millions into technology that has lasted them, you know, 25, 30 years. They all made the switch over to the cloud, for example, in what, early 2000s. So this will be the next wave of change for them, but it just takes a long time. Yeah, I bring that up because I work for Redstone uh and we're an Oracle. And we are having lots of conversations with traditional finance companies that are interested in tokenizing assets. And one of the key characteristics that's really, really important for them, of course, is privacy. know, counterparty privacy as well as other types of privacy. um And so we're having a lot of those conversations now and it's very exciting. And I can definitely see a need for 10 and for some of these traditional finance companies to consider 10 uh as a partner in which to build their services. uh yeah, there's a very solid business case really, because when you think about um blockchains like Ethereum, you're plugging into a global infrastructure and it doesn't really cost you anything. You're not having to spin up servers in all your um regional branches, which is the model now. You've got data centers and the banks full of servers that are all communicating. And that is just such an expensive outfit to have to operate and operate and upgrade and secure. And if you latch into a blockchain, you get that global redundancy off the bat. It's kind of a no brainer, um but it's just, yeah, it's just taking time. Just taking time. Earlier, you mentioned a couple of projects. I think you mentioned Noir, which comes from Aztec Protocol. I'd like to go into maybe a discussion around competitors. And you don't have to mention any names, but I'm curious about when you look at the competitive landscape, um which projects might or which adjacent projects might you... are looking to as like a competitor and maybe what differentiates you or Ten from them. So I think when we started 10, we had a very clear vision of who we thought our competitors were. And it was the privacy projects that existed at the time. you could count them on one hand. And they were using similar technology. They were using TEEs. But we quickly saw that their ecosystems were quite stale. And it didn't have the same liquidity as Ethereum. So we were kind of pat on the back for us, we made the right choice, let's stick with it. And then ZK came along and then that felt like the next round of competitors, but that's just taking longer to reach fruition. um So definitely will be competitive, but not right now. But then in the last six to eight months, what's become more prevalent is that you are seeing the much more well established bigger players building privacy elements into their solutions. So um Arbitrum, um forget the name of their privacy solution, but Arbitrum have something, Catano have Midnight. I dare say Optimism are working on something. So it's now being, I guess what would you consider the OG L2s are now... moving into our sphere, if you like. And that is more challenging to deal with because they're very well funded, very mature in their processes, but there's always room for a disruptor. You know, don't underestimate what the small kid can do to the big bully. So yeah, we're still confident we're going to be able to carve a niche, but we just need to make sure that we're having shoulders above those guys. Yeah, and just so you know my perspective on this, blockchain is a very nascent industry and I think the space is big enough. I think the TAM is large enough that there's gonna be many winners. And I think uh blockchain in general has fallen into the trap of kind of uh a PV, like player versus player kind of uh competitiveness when we really need to be at the stage of kind of co-opetition. um There's just so much more room. We can grow the pie together versus fighting each other at such an early stage. And privacy is a massive need. It's a very large market. I think there's going to be plenty of winners. And there's going to be a need for all sorts of different types of privacy solutions. OK. Now, let's go into, you mentioned, I want to go into perp dexes because I'm an active perp trader and um I'm seeing some perp dexes recently um implementing privacy solutions into their dex. So Aster is one, Hibachi is another. And they're doing it in various ways. I think Hibachi's using ZK on the backend, um where it's a mix of like on-chain, off-chain type thing and then I'm not really sure what Aster is doing, but the idea is if you are a trader, maybe you're a hedge fund and you don't want people to see or outside observers, you know, look, seeing what your strategy is, then you want privacy. And that doesn't exist right now in hyperliquid, which is the largest perp decks. And so it's a value add to traders to have some level of privacy so you can keep your transactions to yourself. Tell us about, you know, what 10 protocol is doing in the perp deck space or in the trading space. Yeah, so what's particularly interesting for us is dark pool trading. um The something that I worked very um closely on when I used to work for an inter dealer broker back in trad finance, what ended up being one of the biggest revenue earners for the equities desk was uh effectively a dark pool trading platform. And um you define what that is for the audience really quick? So dark pool trading is kind of as the name suggests, you're all putting um your offers into a market, but nobody knows who's behind those offers. it keeps your trading strategy private as an individual, but also more importantly, it doesn't reveal the size of your position that you're trying to exit from, for example. So the reason... um this particular platform became so helpful for this equities desk is, so this was an equity broker. So they had let lots of banks as their customers and some of these banks had massive positions in say Vodafone and they wanted to be able to get rid of those shares. But obviously if they were to let on that they were trying to exit their position, then it would have moved the market. that. demonstrated how if you can provide enough privacy then you enable a whole new way for banks to trade and similarly we see the same thing here if we if people want to have a new way to trade in web3 that's not already been done to death then something like dark pools is going to enable a new strategy it's going to enable uh whales to trade like their know retail and let retail to trade like their whales so nobody's going to necessarily know who is their trading with um and they won't know what their sizes are but they do know that they're going to be able to hit the trades that they want by picking it off the screen in the dark pool. um So that's quite interesting for us from a trading perspective but yeah it's always been a problem right? How can you possibly have a fair market where you know people's liquidation limits um liquidation levels, what their stop order limits are, what their trading strategies are. That's not really a fair trading market. yeah, the way that we've now got private perp, Dex is makes perfect sense. I think there's even a project out there that I'm sure you're familiar with James Wynn, who was hunted down and liquidated on his large BTC trade. And I think there's a Perpdex out there that's branded the term like James Wynn proof, something like that, which is actually interesting. Okay. Tell us now, like looking forward, say, I don't know, 24 months. um So if everything goes right for 10 protocol in let's say 24 months, like what will look different then? um And as you look back, like what were the kinds of things that you and the team did to make it go right? That's a great question. Okay, so let's deal with what it looks, what 10 looks like in 24 months. So, and if everything's gone right. So we obviously we're going to have the really, you know, the really sticky kind of daps deployed that almost be first out of the gate, like things like the poker and the crash games. um And we'll be bringing on our launch partners um for Dex's. and synth trading, synthetics trading. um Obviously, we'll be having POCs with some of these enterprises. And we would have had loads of um transaction volume at that point. So demonstrating how, you know, being a layer two, 10 scalable and fast and as well as being encrypted. And what I'd love to see is the 10 stack. So really using the optimisms playbook. So having the 10 stack being used for other layer 2s, other projects to be able to get that same degree of privacy and encryption. And even going as far as having uh an institutional version of 10. So it would be a standalone 10 network that's gated by a consortium of institutions so that they can still use Ethereum as their underlying blockchain. they control the membership of their own um nodes within that network. it becomes almost like a consortium led network so that they can all trade amongst themselves, which is quite a familiar setup with trad finance at the moment. um sorry, go ahead Yeah. And then if we were to look back at what the team would be proud of, I guess, to be able to get there, it would, I mean, let's not underestimate the heavy lift it is to get EVM running in a TEE and then being able to start a layer two and never turn it off. You can never turn it off. has to work all the time. And so in 24 months, when we've had a layer two network that has behaved flawlessly, then that is testament to the engineers building high availability solutions, building an update system, building a hotfix system, having a secure network that doesn't get hacked. Famous last part, now I've said it. But you know, those would be all the things that we will look back on proudly uh if we do tick all those boxes. That's great. Now, uh Gavin, there anything else that we, that, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to talk about? um I would be remiss if I didn't talk about how this is such an exciting time for us. So we have been spending years building 10. The tech is so close to ready. So if you've ever shipped software, you get to the point, it's almost a bit like, I don't know if I should choose some form of metaphor. I guess it's like sculpting in clay. I don't sculpt in clay, but I can imagine you kind of start with a rough shape and then it gets closer and closer. closer closer and then you're just tweaking you know you're just fixing the odd little bit here and there without having to start again so that that's effectively where 10 is at now we're on this final straight where our bugs are cropping up but they're bugs that you can fix within hours and it's a hot fix it's an update you know it's not a complete redeploy it's not a complete my god start again so that's really encouraging so that means we're super super super close to being able to ship um which is the most exciting time, but also the most frightening time because you think this is the end, but it's not, it's the beginning. So it's when it's really going to become a real thing, like giving birth to the beast as it were. So yeah, that's super exciting. And then obviously with the main net and we need to be able to govern the main net. So we'll be having a token coming out soon after, which is super exciting as well. brings with it a whole new raft of skills and collaborations and challenges that are on a par with the levels of sleepless nights. I think the tech keeps me awake half the night and then the token the other half of the night. So yeah, it's incredibly exciting for us right now. That's great. um with Mainnet coming out, uh we don't talk about uh token type things other than as a mechanism for incentives and alignment, um tell us what message do you have for the community as you approach Mainnet, which is coming soon? um I guess, what message do you have for them? I would say keep building on Testnet. um We fully believe the best ideas are going to come from our community. We're very lucky in that we've got a community that's stuck with us for a long time. And many members of the community have been instrumental in how we've got to today, whether that's through testing or giving us feedback or deploying or simply supporting us and... helping us raise our profiles. All those things have been invaluable. But yeah, my message would be keep your ideas flowing, keep trying things out. I think it's got a little bit easier with the advent of, or the arrival, I should say, of AI to help with coding. I think it's getting quicker and quicker to write taps. yeah, it's a good, it's the perfect synergy of... very quick to build dApps and then very easy to deploy those dApps to 10 and then start doing something exciting and bring Ethereum into the next new wave of um exciting and innovative experiences for people in Web3. Well, Gavin, thank you so much. This has been a really insightful discussion. I think 10 is carving out a really unique position for itself and is part of Ethereum's evolution. So thanks for pulling back the curtain, sharing with us about the growth 10 is going through and your road to mainnet. Very excited for you and the 10 team. Absolute pleasure Peter. Thanks for having me on. It's been a joy. Thank you. Thank you.